MAB Q&A

Just my opinion, I would look at songs from bands like the Lumineers and The Head and the Heart.  While they have clearly defined verses and choruses (for the most part -- ha, ha).   But, they seem to add another high energy section that really could be a chorus also.   Bascially they are maximizing variety and energy, but they don't lose coherency or meaning.

Two examples:
1.)  Lumineers:  Hey Ho  -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjVlbK7OOrc   The section of  "Love – we need it now"  could be considered a bridge, but it is more chorusey to me.

2.)  The Head and The Heart:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3CqR_m6NO0   The "I am on my way" section definitely sounds like a chorus, but it comes pretty late and doesn't seem to have much to do with the song (ha, ha).  I think that it adds a whole different, temporary direction to the song and adds a  lot of energy.

I realize these aren't contemporary country lyrics -- they are too obtuse for Nashville/country writing, but dang they sound pretty good!  I think that approach could be applied to country songs.  Much rather go that direction that the rappin' stuff.

Jarrod,

Imagine if I said to you, "I am tired of how this old 600 year rule of law that has been established from England, brought over to the New Country and still practiced in this country. I think I am going to start speaking Flemish and do things my own way because it needs "new things" to shake it up." You are fully free to do that. But it may have a short life span because it is not what the actual rules will allow or the consumers of those rules will tolerate.

I hear a lot of people always talk about "doing something different" in music, to be in with the "next big thing." What would that be? Delivering a message that takes LONGER to get to a point? What people are wanting things longer in their lives? As much as people would like to be "different", it is the listening public that determines what they will accept. The "Verse, Chorus" Verse Chorus, bridge chorus out is that way because it DELIVERS INFORMATION QUICKLY, keeps the action moving, keeps it singable and consistant yet doesn't get boring and wraps up the story in a bout three and a half minutes. When you derivate from that format, people get bored, tune it out and move on to something else because there is endless choice for music consumers. And believe me THE HARDEST THING OF ALL IS GETTING AND KEEPING ATTENTION.

People do "new things" all the time. The recent infusion of rap into country being a good example. In some limited cases it has worked, Jason Aldeen for instance. But suddenly EVERYBODY seems to want to put in a rap section into every song. A few things happen.

First of all, Rap music is black music from the street. It is their's, and they get very protective and very angry at anyone taking "Their" music. Even when someone like Eminiem does it, there is as much controversy and conflict with it as people who like it. So that side of the audience is NEVER going to accept a "bunch of white guys trying to be 'street'." Ask Big Ed on that. He is a rap and hip hop producer.

Second, country music is traditionally a STORY TELLING FORMAT. Even in party songs, there is a distincty conversational narrative. It makes sense and lets you know what is going on. When you start adding the amount of rhymes that it takes for rap music, it starts to sound sophomoric, goofy and silly. And it sounds like a bunch of rednecks trying to be hip. And all it really does is make them look like those charactures of people in the 70's trying to be "funky, Groovy and hip. " Like Lawrence Welk saying "a thanka ya boysss....playa thata funky music white boya!!!!" Sounds really stupid if you ask me. But they do it.

So what are you wanting to throw at the listening public?  Nine verses before you get to a chorus? Show me where that has worked? Talking in a different language? Same thing. 

What you are doing is basing something on a FLAWED ASSUMPTION that a lot of people make. Just because YOU ARE NOT HEARING SOMETHING doesn't mean IT IS NOT BEING TRIED. Go to any rock club, go to any "underground; hang out' college bar, and you will hear what you are talking about. Things being done differently. It is called ALTERNATIVE. (ALTERNATIVE TO THE MAIN STREAM.) It is DIFFERENT. 
But DIFFERENT IS NOT ALWAYS GOOD. Most  of it is JUST PLAIN CRAP, and you are not hearing it for a reason. NOBODY WANTS IT.

The thing about the Internet is that you can do anything you want to.write what you want to. Record it on your camera phone and put it on YOU TUBE. You can find out if it works or not. Your proof is there pretty quickly. You get views or you don't. But you also have to get used to another aspect, BEING IGNORED.

I can't tell you what to write or how to write it. I can show you what people who succeed wildly do, and show you what people who fail continually do. Again, it is pretty apparent. When you are up here this weekend, we will try to find a couple of writer's shows and you can see for yourself. Too bad you aren't here Thus. Jeffery Steele is playing at Third and Lindsley and you want to see a guy who traditionallly does it better than anyone with hundreds of cuts, dozens of top tens and number ones, there you go. You can see why.

Want to see what doesn't work? Stick around for Monday at the Bluebird open mic or Tuesday at  Douglas Corner open mic. You will see it all night long. 

What is the "next big thing?" I have no idea. Don't you think anyone who could see what it was would be doing that and nothing else? No one likes to waste time and money. That is why successful writers write a LOT OF DIFFERENT SONGS WITH A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE. Up the level of your odds.

But I can tell you what it WON'T BE. Taking longer to deliver a message that goes over the head of most of the listeners. That is just not going to happen. If you want to make real impact, learn how to do it the right way first. Say what you want to say in an interesting way, using the existing formats. Got to learn the rules first before you can break them. And you are probably going to come to the conclusion most people have already come to.
DIFFERENT AIN'T ALWAYS GOOD. 

MAB 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You know Jarod, I really like your question! I am an NSAI member, and one of the services I use is their critique service. I got an eval back the other day that said my song "sounded a little dated", and he/she suggested I listen to current country to get a better idea of what the rhythm and melody should be. My response (to myself)? "I dont want to sound like today's country". I guess in my attempt to sound new I actually sounded like yesterdays country. BUT, I did listen to all of the current top 10 billboard, and picked a rhythm and melody I though I could best come close to with my guitar playing and vocal abilty. Resubmitted, and still got the same comment. Oh well. I sure don't know how to make a song sound. LOL

Even though when I write, I write lyrics and melody and rhythm at the same time, I try to focus on the lyric most of all. My feeling is, if the lyrics holds up, I can get it to "sound current country" in the studio Am I wrong in that thinking?

phil g.

I wasn't talking about making the songs longer at all. My question was based on the assumption that such "new stuff" be within the confines of 2-3 minute songs, 4 at max, with 2 verse/channel/choruses as you've successfully gotten me conformed to doing.

Phil, did you ever get my comment on better stressing on the 2 and the 4 in your songs (I think you reposted a couple of songs and lost the comments).  That alone would bring you up to the 90's (ha, ha).  Make your music "groove" more to get people to think that it sounds more "modern"   I don't think it would be that hard in your stuff.   That groove would make your guitar/vocal more fun to play, so that is benefit enough!

My boy Jamey Johnson from down here in Alabama has done and continues to do pretty well with the traditional "old country" sound.

Yeah Kevin, you're right. Sometimes it seems like there's no rhyme or reason to songs or critique of songs. Guess it's kinda like everything else in life. Go figure. Thanks for the reply.

Kevin, yes I got your message. I'm working on a new song now that kind of does that. I'll post soon.

Jarod, I got the idea you were talking about "doing it different within the 3 min time frame". I have been writing six short line verses, AABCCB rhyme, with a 2 line channel. With intro, I usually still get to the chorus within 40 seconds. Even that got a negative comment from one evaluator who thought I should eliminate the channel. The rhythm format is 12-16 measures of verse (and channel if present), 8-12 measures of chorus, and 4-6 measures of bridge. If you check out my songs in open mic, one is 9 measures verse, 8 measures chorus, and 11 measures bridge. Still, the song is only 3 min. 10 sec. because it is only 94 BPM.

phil g.

Jarrod,

A lot of people make the same mistake about Jamey Johnson. They think "he is doing this, why can't I?" They miss CONTEXT. With Jamey, yes he is doing well (depending on how you look at it) for himself. But he can do the more "traditional' (which are just stories but still about the same time frame), but started with HONKY TONK BEDONKADONK. That was the first big hit that he had, and that was on Trace Adkins, not himself. Then he followed that up with a HUGE song, IN COLOR. So yes, if you can write two songs that sell about ten million in product, you TOO can do whatever you want to do.

You see, you can do whatever it is you want to. The audience makes the decisions on what works and what doesn't. And if you don't make  it applicable for the masses, no industry people, that you need to DISTRIBUTE IT to the masses, are going to take a chance on it.

People who want to take "chances" are always very loud and very verbose about being different. And generally THEY are not the ones spending millions of dollars to promote a song or artist. If you had to go to a bank, borrow millions of dollars against your home, your furniture, your repuation, your children's futures, your ability to pay for anything you want, cars, homes, women, etc. you would be MUCH less desiring to "take a risk." Because most of music is a moneytary loss. So you have to decide on how much "being different" means to you.

You see, it has never occurred to me to WANT to try to "be different." I always try to be inventive and interesting within the formats established. This is for a very easy reason. I don't enjoy BEING IGNORED. I don't like BEING TALKED OVER, WALKED OUT ON, LOOKED AT BY VENUE OWNERS, WAITRESSES, BARTENDERS, as the ENEMY because I ran customers out of the venue. I don't like being looked at by club owners or manages like I am so stupid that I don't know any better that without patrons, NOBODY MAKES MONEY AND THE DOORS DON'T STAY OPEN. I don't like being told "No thanks, we really don't need you here," or "Don't call us, we'll call you." 

Because that is what happens with people who are really different. And there have been a lot of people who were really different. Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, John Belushi, Robin Williams, Andy Kaufman Amy Winehouse, Phillip Seymore Hoffman. They were all different. THEY ARE ALL VERY DEAD! Different leads to a different kind of frustration because it is rarely recognized or moneytized while they are alive. The people who are "different" also have strange behavior, personality, a lot of drug and alcohol problems. 

There are people who are DIFFERENT but work within the confines of what has already been established, and take it the next step. Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Steve Jobs, Donald Trump, all are different too. But they expanded the market place to fit what they were doing.

In country I have seen some different people. Garth Brooks and Taylor Swift. Why did they work when so many else didn't? Garth did nothing musically that hadn't been done before. If you just went on music, he was very similar to many of the Oklahoma or Texas artists before him. He just added HUGE STAGE SHOWS AND BOUNDLESS ENERGY.

Taylor was different in that she wrote instinctive songs, that transended her age range. She appealed to people older than she was and avoided the "sophomoric" lyrics and sing songy things that most of her contemporaries always did.
And she was at the beginning of the "Twitter Universe" so she was able to take that message directly to her fans.
But as far as the structure, verse chorus, framework, musical patterns (three chords and the truth), they were pretty much EXACTLY the same as the people who came before and after them. They just added other parts of the entertainment business that fit their personalities and worked within their world.

So being different can be good. It can be nonsense. I will guarantee you this. The "next Big Thing" that comes along and grabs your attention and you think "hey, that is different..."I bet I can break it down for you and show you that it is not as different as you think it is.  

 

There are still always going to be only 12 notes and a combination thereof. They aren't making anymore.
There are still going to be 5 senses. They aren't making anymore. 
They're are still going to be about 6 emotions. They aren't making anymore.

Want to different? Go for it.

MAB 

 

 

I feel like I'm the bad guy guest on Hannity or something. I was just asking to be more informed and to get your guidance on the issue.

Jarrod,

I just did. I also explain WHY my opinions are formed. You give me information you are interested about and I give you the background on it, and why. I also fill in back story. One thing about Jamey Johnson, he is notoriously unreliable. He doesn't show up for gigs, dissapears for weeks at a time and no one knows where he is. His record company complains about not knowing how to handle him. So yes, he is different, but there are a lot of sides to that.

A few days ago, we were talking about the three minute time limit. Justin was asking about why that was and was it importance. In Texas, they are used to having songs longer than that. I explained why that was, that essentially people have a thirty second attention span. it has been that way for centuries. The "three minute wall" in songs are about as long as people are going to pay attention to, and commerical radio will play. I explained all of that. If you back up about 5-7 pages, you can find that discussion.

He also talks about the animosity of Texas toward Nashville. I explained that too. Because Texans have THEIR way of doing things, and want everyone else to conform to what THEY do. Real life doesn't work like that. And most people when it comes to songwriting and music are coming TO Nashville, not going AWAY, from Nashville.

In my OPINION (which is what all of this is), if you wanted to REALLY BE DIFFERENT than most of the songwriters and people doing this, "Write very interesting songs, that are memorable, singable, and work within the verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/chorus" format that people actually want to listen to instead of turn off or walk out on. Make them tell a really good convincing story, that people can believe in and relate to and do it within about three and a half minutes that doesn't get boring. That would make you very different than around 98% of the writers trying to do this. 

The rest are too busy trying to be DIFFERENT. Different is not always good.

MAB 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                                   Format

There is also a reason why the Verse, or Verse/Channel/chorus format works. Thirty seconds or four-six lines are what you should need to set up the initial settting for your story. Like a television show or movie, you ESTABLISH the characters, the settings, the visual furniture displayed. It is like people are walking into a room and you are introducing the newcomer to who they are.

The CHORUS is the emotional part that makes you FEEL something. It gives the listener a way to become involved in the song too. They can sing along. The HOOK is the entire reason FOR LISTENING, SINGING, AND BEING INVOLVED IN THE SONG.

The second verse expands the action, develops the story.  It introduces more characters or continues the senario. Or it does back story telling us what happened BEFORE the story got started. But it has to encapsulate the action and keep it moving. If it repeats information already introduced, people get bored and the "been there, done that, MOVE ON!" attitude. 

So you come back to your CHORUS again, so people can say "Hey I remember this, this is MY PART!" And it reintroduces the HOOK which is the REASON WE ARE HERE! Part.

The BRIDGE is usually done as a WRAP UP, or lawyers summation. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we have presented the evidence of this song. Now you have to make your decision on this song and pass judgement on if it meets your standards or not!" 

The final chorus reminds people of WHY we are a part of it, and WHY THEY SHOULD CARE. And one more time they get to BE A PART OF THE SONG!

All of that usually wraps up in three and a half minutes or under. That keeps people involved. If you go much farther they really don't stay involved.

If you watch television and use a stop watch, there are about 3-3 1/2 minutes of commericals about every 12-15 minute segments. Then it is back to the regularly scheduled programming. Most everything we do is ordered in three minute segments.

In Nashville we get THREE SONGS per writers night.
Thirty Seconds to get to a chorus.
Three songs are usually played in the progress of a song pitch.
Songs are about three minute and thirty seconds in length.

If you deviate from that (except in being shorter. There really IS no such thing as TOO SHORT) people will get anxious,  squirmy, restless, and lose attention span. 

So that is the reason that songs are in that format, time limit and why we try to conform to that limit. Anything else, is probably going to lose their attention. 

MAB

About Jamie Johnson,

I love the guy and all his music but you have to ask yourself what "doing well" is. He is on constant tour playing small venues and state fairs with the occasional casino performance. Yes he is doing his own thing and staying true to his core persona but its still nowhere near what acts like Jason Aldean and those guys are doing.

So to me the "hes still keeping traditional country alive" argument isnt valid. I saw him last year here in OKC at a very small dance hall. It was packed at maybe 500 people. His entourage was a tour bus, a small trailer, and two vans to carry the crew. ALthough he has had HUGE success at times he is still playing the same circuit that small acts are playing just to make ends meet.

If he is happy then that is all that matters. It seems like a hard life to me and is one reason I gave up the "Gigging band" thing years ago. Its one thing to pay your dues and work your way up but to have as big a name as he does and still be living on the road seems like the antithesis of what he should be doing.

With his stature as a writer, he could spend his days working with new acts and writing for labels. Maybe he loves the small tours. Who knows but traditional country is still and will remain on the back burner as long as young people drive record sales.

MH

Matt,

That is correct. And Jamey is one of the "principal complainers" about the music business. He constantly is at odds with the industry and blames them for many of the problems he created himself. When he was in the middle of the hype and hoopla of the "In Color' song, he was known as being hard to work with. it has actually come out in some "tell all" books about the industry from people who are good friends.  He does like playing the more intimate venues but does complain that he can't step up to the larger venues. He is an "aquired taste" and sometimes known as the "prickly pear" among people that work with him.

Most artist and writer's wounds are self inflicted. I think when people get a shot at things, they should not take that for granted. But far too many do. And they find themselves that "flash in the pan" they used to make fun of other's being.

I don't know what will happen to Jamey. I don't know him well at all personally. I have known people who do know him, and they kind of snicker about it.  I could see him having one of those "Steve Earle" niche careers, that go on for a while. Probably will never recapture that earlier success, but will be able to do those tours, fairs, rodeos, smaller and medium venues  and casinos for quite a while. If he keeps his costs down, he will do fine.

MAB 

 

 

 

 

Hey EVERYBODY! I just wanted to take a few minutes to tell ya'll what I've been doing the last few days. And, it has NOTHING to do with MUSIC, AND it is MORE IMPORTANT [to me] than any hit song I might ever accidentally write!! And, it is something I want to WISH FOR ALL OF YOU.

For those of you who don't know, I will turn the big seven oh in December. And most days it feels like it too! LOL. BUT, Friday I spent over an hour in a Florida noonish sun (about 90+ degrees) washing my Motor home. Didn't finish, so Saturday, I spent another hour plus in the same heat finishing the job. Today, (because of my stupidity) I spent another 1+ hours in the noonish hot Florida sun (again about 90+ degrrees) putting an RV cover on my motor home.

Now, for all you guys 55 and under, I know you are thinking, so? Well, wait until you get close to that big seven oh! Then you will understand just how great the feeling is that you are still able to do physical things on your own. Whether it's putting a cover on your RV, mowing your lawn, doing home repairs, building things, or whatever. It is a great feeling of SELF ACCOMPLISHMENT that I truely wish for all of you. STAY SAFE AND BE HEALTHY!!

phil g.

Great reading guys,

Jarrod, I lol'd at your "bad guy guest on Hannity" comment. MAB will give it to you straight up with no filter, take it and learn from it, he means well I'm sure you've figured that out. If he ever gets under your skin, just start discussing the "Positive Influence on Rap In Country Music" it's a topic he LOVES to cover. hahaha NO I'm teasin' DON'T DO THAT! I learned the hard way.

Seriously, to your question, I think MAB's answer was great, don't try to predict the future, MAKE the future, I may be just young and naive and but honestly I don't see why I can't set trends lyrically in my own living room, and then getting my ideas out with artists. Make the trends happen, don't try to gauge them, write a TON of a songs and keep them all handy, I chart the Texas charts on a monthly basis and write 4-6 songs or starts of songs for the top ten artists each month... on the off chance I meet one of them, I've got something I at least THINK might be up their alley in my back pocket so to speak, ready to go. Preperation is key, like Warren Buffett once said "Everyone looks the same when the tide is up, but it's when the tide goes out then you'll see who's swimming naked. Moral: Write, write, write, be ready for the opportunity when it presents itself.

Brother Phil,

I lol'd at your RV post... seriously my hats off to you brother turning 90 years old in a couple months and your still out there washing your RV in the heat and humidity. Kuddos. I can only pray i have that kind of energy at that age. They forced us to sit through an hour long class at work last week on "heat safety" blah blah, and they said for people coming out of a.c. and working in the heat it's an average 14 day period of time to become acclimated, I will say for me that was about exact, Texas is even worse, my second day I actually got so hot my vision went pitch black for like 7 seconds and luckily there was a fence for me to lean on. I'm not trying to give TMI but I didn't go to the bathroom all day long, and I drank 17 bottles of water on my 3rd day there, I didn't notice till end of day I was probably sweating it out faster than my body could process it. Not to mention in the heat with hip waders made of black rubber, and latex gloves that go up to your elbows... i've lost 16 pounds in a month and one week already. I'm kind of glad I started when i did though, I'm used to it now, and I kind of went from the frying pan to fire, I love cold weather so it will only get better from here.

 

I don't really know how else to answer these questions. I try to give as complete information as I can, and hope it's not misunderstood. But I will outline it as best as I can.

On trying to write "hits" or "trends" or any of that stuff. Don't. Try to write songs that make sense and make people sing along. If you are trying to educate, have a point of view, do it, but make it where most people can understand it. 
Try to get out of your own way.
Work with other people to learn as much as you can.
Get around other people who know more than you.
Dont' get too caught up in any one thing.

Most of it is not as complicated as people try to make out. Just don't suck.

 

MAB 

 

 

 

 

Yes... the kid has finally jumped into the merch game by the way... Youth sizes available in a couple months.

Maybe if Texans spent as much time learning to write songs instead of printing up t-shirts and trying to swing at Straw men that have nothing to do with them, maybe they might get better at it for a change. Then they wouldnt have to get on their "hate Nashville soapbox."

LOL MAB!!!! Nah, I'm far from a Nashville hater on this one, I just want to support the folks and the market where I'm at.... I'm a fan first of all of my peers, that's what it's about for me. Supporting my fellow artists in my area. I don't think it would be any diff than say Meh printing shirts that say #SupportJerseySongwriters or something, it's about building up those in my "small pond" Nashville ain't got nothing to do with this one.

Justin:  My advice would be to set aside the texas vs. nashville thing for awhile.  Read the road signs.

Tougher Than Texas

I love my country, the American way,
But my home state's the best place in the whole USA,
With the sweetest and best lookin' women around,
Tougher than Texas,
Lord I'm Bama bound,

With their Longhorns and their Aggies,
They take football with pride,
But they ain't got War Eagle or the sweet Crimson Tide,

They say don't mess with Texas,
And maybe that's so,
But Alabama never got beat
by Mexico,

Y'all got good country music,
That's a sure enough fact,
Willie, Waylon, Tex Ritter, Clint Black,

But the truth about country,
Even though you don't want it,
Is Hank Williams made it,
And Jamey Johnson will own it,

Yeah, the true Heart of Dixie,
Still beats through the South,
So don't forget that down in Texas,
Next time you run your mouth...

Jarrod D. Nichols
2014

Sorry, couldn't resist... : )

That was nice Jarrod... LOL I'd love to throw one back at you, but MAB has informed me before he doesn't want lyrics posted on this forum. Kevin has suggested I quit talking about Texas so i will... I would talk about Alabama but there really isn't anything interesting coming out of there that comes to mind right off the bat.... LOL!!!!!!!!!!! I'm just kidding man!!! Great to see you got a good sense of humor in joking around on here!!!

on a different topic, has anyone heard from Brother JimmyB???