Justin Parker
#4100
Man there is some really great back and forth going on here, and it is really invigorating. Great questions, and great answers from MAB as always!

Phil, I feel your pain! About three months ago I was approached by a girl to write a song, she had an idea and a couple lines, I'm very, very easy to work with, I'll scrap a whole song sometimes and just go back with the title. It doesn't bother me to do that. Well I often will write a song to near completion when working with people via email, WITH that stipulation they understand I never marry my lyrics. Well I happened to write what I thought was a good basis for a song, or at least a start... Her reply was something along the lines of:
"What a great start, it's practically a song."
After reading between the lines that she wasn't to enthused about it, I just plainly replied "So what do you think? Do you want to continue along that story, go from another angle? Or just sweep?"
About two weeks passed with no response, to be honest I continued writing the song through as a pencil sharpener and loved it.
I asked her in another email casually feeling our if she liked it or not... She still beat around the bush, finally I just asked her flat out, albeit politely, her answer...
"Well it's a great song, but I just don't know if it is for me. I mean, like... it really just tells such a story! I just really don't like telling songs with detail, or telling any kind of real story, I (there's that word again) just like to express MY (there it is again) emotions and let the listener soak them in and let it really resonate and they see if thel they can identify with ME." (A trend is forming here?)

After I removed my jaw from the floor, I sent her a very pc reply and moved on about my day... I mean... Just... Wow.

Wes,
As MAB described you may be a different breed of Texan LOL I would NEVER claim to be from another state based on what people said about me, no way... You could water board me for a day and I'd die screaming Texas and those would be the last words from my dying lips!!!! LOL however MAB knows the respect I have for Nashville, and understand the politics involved, I'm for certain "a safe Texan" to visit Nashville! I know where my bread is buttered in the end, so I never speak ill of Nashville, to the contrary I often encourage others to stop it as well,I know one man won't change the mentality of the whole state but I try to do my part. Support Texas Country fine, but don't bash Nashville in the process is what I advise.
Real life scenario, a friend who is coming to my house to finish four songs we've had about 90% for over a year. He moved to Nashville six months ago, called me this post weekend, as we were setting our cowrite for tomm he was telling me some stage tricks to work crowds he's picked up etc. None that MAB wouldn't already know. That's neither here nor there, casual small talk between an artist and a writer (and friend!!! Remember that good F word!) He told me some funny things he did which I laughed, I.e things to win over an audience, I shared with him one I'd heard at a private performance from Gary P. Nunn one time, from stage he said, "Our CD's are for sale on the back table for $15 dollars, and our tip jar is up front here if you feel so inclined. Or we'd be happy to cut a deal if you'll just tip $14 up here we'll be happy to sell you a CD at a discounted rate of $1.00!!!" I'm sure that one is not new either, but it was funny and I remember it which is most important. It was witty, and memorable...
However my friend then said a couple nights prior a lady kept requesting a Sam Hunt song and he proudly replied he told her "no ma'am I prefer to play country music." Of course people laughed but I quickly replied with putting the brakes on... " Whoa, whoa man! I'd be careful saying those kind of jokes man, look you're in Nashville, Sam Hunt territory, and it's a small town man, what if someone from his camp was in the audience and tapping his foot to your music, enjoying your stuff, and JUST pretend he wanted to approach you about something, then all of a sudden you stay that????" "You hear that gunshot?" He laughed, and said "no why" I responded, "cause you could have just shot yourself in the foot and ended your career before it started!" You can't go cracking jokes like that in town, I'd advise against in Texas to be honest, but just be careful man. I believe he got my point...
Wes,
I'm with MAB as well with the whole lyrics thing, songramp as a whole is a community, so I don't want to discourage others from using to their full advantage! We are a family of sorts on this thread, but while I posted a couple of songs in my day, I don't anymore. I'm simply to busy getting "out of the living room" as MAB calls it, it's got me farther than any song posted in some forum, get out and meet people, or turn online friendships into real life like the time all of us took a group tour to Nashville
Like
Marc-Alan Barnette
#4101
Some good one's there Justin. When I first started talking to Wesley, I immediately tried to get you to communicating. Because you are EXACTLY what I am talking about. you have gone, out supported others, have written with artists, have taken it out of just the starting gates. 

I am not trying to be dissmissive about any boards or threads here. The reason they have forums, lyric rooms, collaboration tune topics, etc. are because SOMEONE is interested in them. It's what brings everyone to these types of sites to begin with. It is all a conversation.

But, the same way I mentioned that contests could be HOLLOW to people, I mean much of the same thing here. Getting allies in any way shape and form is a  good thing. Being able to post ideas, lyrics, full songs are what this is all about. But it is not until you get out and meet some people face to face is the full effect felt. Even when Rampers get together in Nashville or wherever, face to face, there is a better spirit of community. People know each other's songs. And when they are staying in the same hotels, conference rooms, participating in shows  or whatever, it brings another level to all of it. 

In my experience, the Internet can't do that. It can help. And even things like SKYPE can bring new elements to a relationship. And they are relationships too. But most people usually want MORE. They want to "hear their songs on the radio." They want to hear someone on a stage doing something they have written. They want to have the "real feeling" and that can only be done by being there. Anything you can do is better than being all alone.

MAB 
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Wes Tibbets
#4102
Hi Justin,

The California thing was a business decision. I was working with distributors and supply companies trying to meet a multi-million dollar deadline. As soon as I would tell them I was from Texas, they would drag their feet and become difficult. I was on a tight schedule and didn't need the hassle. It was easier to just say I was from Oklahoma so that I could meet my deadline. Otherwise, their stupidity would've affected my job and my work reputation. I never had come in on a job late before and I certainly wasn't going to come in late on that one. I had enough headaches compensating for a design that wasn't earthquake friendly in an area where earthquakes are common. Considering that it cost my company $250,000 every day that I didn't meet my deadline and $1.7 million if I engineered the site wrong for every minute the main frames went down, I had a lot bigger headaches to deal with than caring whether someone thought I was from Texas or Timbuktu. So I adapted to overcome.

More than once, I've seen first hand where that Texas bravado can land you. I have a good story about that. It really pertains to what MAB said about people going to Nashville and getting their panties in a wad because Nashville doesn't do things the way they think they should. When I got my first divorce, I went to Jamaica with another cousin of mine to celebrate my freedom. The very first day we were there, I was walking down the beach with no shirt on and a pair of shorts and flip flops. Right beside me was my cousin wearing cowboy boots, starched jeans, red long sleeved starched shirt, cowboy hat and a buckle bigger than he was. He treated the people there badly too. In his mind, they were from a 3rd world country and by God, he was from Texas. It took me all of about 5 minutes to make up my mind that I needed to lose him. The sooner the better. And I did too. I met up with some Jamaican guys and spent my vacation doing as the "Romans" do. I have no idea what my cousin did. But I do know that he hated it there and I loved every second of it.  I also know that when we arrived, I had about $1000 on me and he had several thousand on him. When we got back to the states, I still had $850 and he was broke. We were there a week and the only thing I paid for was mostly just souvenirs to bring home to my family. Everything else was just given to me. And I stayed tore up from the floor up the whole time I was there. As soon as I walked through customs on arrival, the guy driving our shuttle bus from Montego Bay to Negril offered me some "Ganja". I took it to the dismay of the other six people who were also on the shuttle. They complained for ten miles. I finally went up to the driver and asked him if there was a place I could stop and get some rolling papers. He pulled the shuttle bus into this little dive, took what I had with him, walked into this little building and came back out a few minutes later with a brown paper bag with my stuff rolled up. To say the least, that really had everybody complaining at me. And when they saw I had every intention of firing one up, all hell broke loose. Finally the driver took up for me and told them that "In Jamaica it's no problem mon!" So, I lit it up, puffed away and before we got to Negril 5 of the 6 people on that bus including the driver had decided to join the party. Before I left Jamaica, I dumped out a whole backpack full of "ganja" on my bed because I knew I couldn't take it with me. All told, I paid $20 for all of it. Now, you may very well not approve of what I did, but once again, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Except in this case, it was Jamaica.
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John Westwood
#4103
Nothing to do with writing  but a lot  to do with attitude.


I can  kinda relate to Wes' story  about folk trying to take  home with you when you are  out of town , out of state, out of the country.

Back in the Olden days ( the 60's)  there used to be cheap ,and I mean CHEAP,  package holidays from Uk to Spain.

You would be amazed ( or maybe not)  the number of folk that went to "foreign parts (Spain)"  and complained   because they couldn't get Watney's Draught Red Barrel beer  and fish and chips   like that had back  home..

Instead of  complaining the  should have been celebrating the difference.

j





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Eddie Rhoades
#4104
Wes, Great stories, keep them coming.
Eddie R.
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Peggy Burnham
#4105
I have a quick question, I need to know what I should do in a certain situation and what I can do. I will make a long story short as I can.

A year ago a friend told us his testimony. I said it sounds like a song and I will write it for you. I wrote the lyrics and started looking for someone local to put music and sing. I found someone that was excited about 3 lyrics and then never heard from them again. I had sent a message a couple of times then I finally just said I was taking them back and moving on. Still did not hear from them.

about 5 months ago we had some fencing done and the fence guy ended up being a singer songwriter. We talked a lot and I told him about my lyrics he wanted to see them and liked them and said he would put music to them and sing it for me. I did not contact him for a while to give him space. Finally I did and he had not done anything with it yet. Then between Christmas and New Years I talked to him and explained that with the new year beginning I wanted to start getting some things done as I had made a promise to my friend. I gave him an out by saying that I understand that he may have spoken to quickly and really didn't have time to work on the song and that was ok I could just do something else. He responded by saying that he would have me something in 2 weeks. After 3 weeks passed he called me and said he had a melody and would like to come over one day the next week and sing it for me and we could discuss where to go from there. Next week came and went and last Monday I called him and he said he was hoarse and would get with me before the end of the week. Then the end of the week came and went. Didn't hear from him on Monday so Tuesday (yesterday) I took the lyrics and did some re writing on them. I am a better writer today than I was last year. I like it much better now and made the decision to go another route. My husband is really mad at him and said I should tell him to go to hell. I can't do that.

So of course today he calls me and says he wants to set up a time for him to sing me the song that he really likes it. I told him I had done a rewrite and was going to go a different route . He really really likes how it turned out and wants me to at least hear it first. I have already started the process of the new route, not so far I couldn't back out, but I really like the rewrite better.

So now, what do I do? He has not kept his word so many times, do I give him yet another chance? Do I just say, I  am going another direction with the song? Can I record both versions? Lyrics are very similar but some changes were made. Since he likes what he did so much, can he record it himself anyway? Where does that leave me? It has been a year since I promised my friend and that is the reason this song is important.

Help!!
Peggy
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Marc-Alan Barnette
#4106
Peggy,

I just did  HUGE post on this then got knocked offline. I'll come back later with more information, but the short answer is YES. You can have multiple versions of a song. You can listen to his, decide on which one you like, and let him do his own version. If a major artist or more advanced artist were to record it, you would have to give a definitive version if you were going to copyright it, but that can be done over time. For now you should probably listen to what he has to say. 

For now, I can't redo my post as it had a pretty interesting story on it. But we go through this a lot of times. I have a current song with one of my favorite co-writers that we do two VERY DIFFERENT VERSIONS of the same song. I did mine on my CD and he does his on his CD. They are basically the same song but have a  lot of different lyrics. That happens sometimes as different people may sing things in certain ways and approach it differently. If a major version were to ever happen, we would have to go through both versions and pick one, but for now, there is no reason for that. 

As usual, since most songs don't go very far past initial recordings, demos, etc. and don't really see the light of day, there is no reason to get too upset about anything. Try to find a compromise and see what works as a win win for everyone. Then go write more songs. 

If you wanted to do an interesting excericse for you, you could COMPLETELY RE-WRITE it in a brand new song and do away with anything you two had worked on. Harland Howard once said a writer is not worth their salt if they can''t re-write a song five or six times from different perspectives. You might want to start over and see where that takes you.

MAB
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Peggy Burnham
#4107
Thanks MAB.
Looking forward to your other post.
My understanding is that co writers both own equally in the lyrics and music of a song. So even though I wrote the lyrics and also did a rewrite so that they are different, would he have any claim on the song with the second co writer? Or the second co writer have any claim to the first one, because of the similarlity?
Thanks You have helped a lot.

Peggy
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Marc-Alan Barnette
#4108
Peggy,

If you wrote a completely different song, it would be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SONG. There would be no question about the other writer. I have gone through situations where we had to add another writer because my co-writer had talked over a song before and they started something though never got anywhere on it. I included him on the final song just because I wanted to head off trouble before it began. But that was a different situation involving some different people.
And that is what my story was going to be about. This is it.

A friend and co-writer and co-performer of mine is named KEITH ANDERSON. Keith had a pretty good run with a record deal for a while in the early 2000's and is a very good writer. One of his songs, PICKING WILDFLOWERS, became a top ten. But before his record deal came together, as  most artists do, he had scored a few cuts and was pitching songs all over the place as he wrote for a publisher. One of those songs, he had written with two other writers. It was called BEER RUN. It was spelled "B DOUBLE E, DOUBLE R.U.N.!" 

Keith had a lot of attention on that song for his first record project. But his publisher called him one day and said "We Need to Add another writer." Kieth got a little hot and said "No way! We already have three writers AND three publishers. We are NOT GOING to add another one!"

Then the publisher said, "The other writer is GARTH BROOKS."

Keith said, "YOU KNOW, I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT SONG NEEDED SOMETHING ELSE!" 

You see, Garth had expressed an interest in the song, and asked to re-write some lyrics to fit the way he would say it. Garth was huge, so the answer was "YES!"

A few months later, they are awaiting their huge Garth Brooks smash, and the publisher calls again. 
"We are going to have to add ANOTHER writer."

Keith put his foot down. "NO WAY MAN! WE ALREADY HAD THREE WRITERS AND THREE PUBLISHERS, AND WE ADDED GARTH WITH HIS PUBLISHER, SO THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL WE ARE ADDING ANOTHER ONE!"

The publisher said "The Other writer is GEORGE JONES!!!!"

Keith said "YOU KNOW, I ALWAYS THOUGHT THERE WAS SOMETHING UNFINISHED ABOUT THAT SONG!"

The idea was to have a duet between Garth and George, but they each wanted to add their own stylistic stuff to it. Many times this would be done and the artist would not ask for credit. But starting in the 90's they not only asked, but started insisting on it.

The song, ended up being a huge hit for Garth and George. One of George's last big hits. Keith was very happy with five writers and five publishers. And because of the success of that song, his record deal came through.

The point being that things often change, and you can never predict them. One of the reasons I am not a big fan of getting copyrights and registrations on songs early is that songs continue to change, some times right up to when they are recorded. And "adding to an existing copyright" can be more complicated than the copyright itself.

I would see what the guy comes up with, have multiple versions if needed and keep my options open. If you totally re-wrote it, it could be a challenge for you. 

MAB
Like
Marc-Alan Barnette
#4109
My personal story on this is this one.

A few years ago, one of my regular clients, a really attractive girl named STACY YOUNG, came to me on a three day tour. We would write a variety of songs, usually about five or six, over the days, and on a later date, we would go record them. 
One day she started talking to me about an idea called "I want to be your quarterback." It was about a woman whose husband is all crazy for football and pays no attention to her. She had some personal experience and while I have seen that, Stacy is very attractive. So I thought her husband might be blind! 

She explained the situation and I was trying to find the hook but just couldn't make it work under that title. So I changed it to "FANTASY FOOTBALL TEAM." Fantasy football was just starting up, and it was all about the fantasy's she could fulfill for him. Worked out great and we were both pretty excited about it. I nearly broke my arm patting myself on the back for that one. LOL! A couple of months later I had a recording session and we added that one. Worked out great. It was a girl's song so we had to have a female sing it. But it worked great.

About a year later I had this other guy doing a tour with me and after going through some of his songs he says "I wanted to write this song about a woman having trouble getting her husband to pay attention to her because he was so into football. The title is "I WANT TO BE YOUR QUARTERBACK." It all sounded a little TOO familiar as he described it. After a few minutes, I pulled up the song on my computer and said "Something like THIS?" 
And his jaw dropped as the song played. It was JUST LIKE HE WAS TALKING ABOUT.

I asked him if he had ever talked over this idea. Yes. WITH STACY YOUNG! Turns out they were in the same songwriting group in St. Louis and had gotten together to write. Stacy had brought the idea to HIM and he tried it but never went anywhere with him. But because they never had talked about taking it somewhere else, there was still an "implied contract." 

So I called Stacy and suggested we add him as a writer. The reason is that he was kind of a dick and I felt like if we had gone on with it without him, he could cause trouble down the line. 

A year ago, I got a copy of a video from a all girl trio called SOUTHERN SIRENS. They had recorded the song, and done a really cute video of the three of them playing on a football field in football jerseys. And nothing else. It's a pretty cool video and they are very good. They are actually starting to showcase around the country now.

This is the video. I think I posted it before but here it is again.

The overall deal is that sometimes it is best to go ahead and add someone to keep peace. You are always going to write more songs and your involvement doesn't have to go too far. But it could end up cutting your nose off to spite your face if you get too caught up in endless details.

Ready for some  football?

MAB
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Peggy Burnham
#4110
It is hard to completely redo the song because it is about and for a particular person and a particular situation. The way it is told of course could change but the actual story and how it happened are just that, actual facts.

I handed David a lyric sheet and he took it to put music to it. He said he would sing it for me. We have not actually sat down together in person, on the phone or computer and worked on the song. When I pretty much gave up on him coming through with anything, after repeated times of not following through on what he said he would do, I decided to go another route and just get it done, as our friend it was written for has been waiting a year for it. ( totally unacceptable in my eyes) I felt the lyrics could be better and did some rewriting on them. Made them more "conversational" :)

Then of course David calls and really really likes how it has turned out. (his melody and my old lyrics) He almost begs me to listen to it first. So then my dilemma arose. I like my new version better, but that is why I wondered if I could do both of them. My lyrics with two different co writers, second set of lyrics is different but does have a lot of the old still in it.

David said the only thing he changed with my original lyrics was to add a The, Then etc,. and he took out one line. I have not heard his version yet. We are scheduled to meet tomorrow at 3:30 so I can hear what he has done and decide what if anything we are going to do with it. If he had been any part or written even one word of the lyrics I started with and rewrote, I know that he would be considered a co writer on both, but he knew nothing about the lyrics until I handed him the lyric sheet I had written

I just want to do what is right and get something I can send our friend like he was promised. Our friend in the last 3 years has had a wife that committed suicide and then he got cancer and went through the treatment process. I want him to have his song.

I thought about showing David the rewritten version but I don't know if he can fit his melody to it and I don't want to waste any more time. I don't mind sharing with anyone but I also don't want to do anything that isn't on the up and up.

Thanks again,  you have helped as usual.

Peggy
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Peggy Burnham
#4111
I forgot to add that there is an advantage to recording David's version. There is a guy in a local small town that has a recording studio. I have been wanting to meet him etc. His name is BRAD DAVIS, grammy winner etc. Worked with lots and lots of well known artists.I would love to be in the studio as the song is being recorded and be a part of that process.

Peggy
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Phillip (phil g.) Grigg
#4112

Peggy, show David the new lyrics tomorrow at 3:30. IF he can change his melody to fit the new lyrics, that's great. If not, take what he has done and use it. Go to the studio and record it. Give him the chance to do a new melody for the new lyrics. In the mean time, let your friend have the original lyrics and David's melody and explain you have a newer version you and David are still working on, and will get that to him when it is done. This way, you get to Brad's studio sooner, and when you have a newer version, you can use Brad's studio again.


phil g.

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Marc-Alan Barnette
#4113
I think Phil has a very good answer for you Peggy. For me, I have been so used to doing multiple versions of songs, it just wouldn't be that big a deal for me. There is never anything wrong with having different versions of a song. If you have the studio ready, you kind of have to be prepared for doing whatever. Seems like you could talk it out with your co-writer and come to somewhere in between. But I am the kind of writer and artists that always keeps a little wall of separation business wise, so that I never get too involved, thereby can always keep some impatiality. 

On this one, I am afraid no one can offer much more than opinions. No one is close to the situation like you are and you are going to have to consider all the information you have and make your best guess.

MAB
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Marc-Alan Barnette
#4114
Eddie,

I keep forwarding information on the new and existing open mics and writers nights in Atlanta. I hope you get them and go to some of them. Those people need support.

MAB
Like
Phillip (phil g.) Grigg
#4115

Just finished up a great co-write with M's. I had this idea for a song about 6 months ago, but I knew I wasn't smart enough to write it alone. I contacted Melissa with the idea and she really liked it. We wound up taking the song in an entirely different direction than I had originally envisioned, but I really think it is a better song for that. The only real issue we (actually I)  have left is word phrasing. She phrases words better than I can, so I am trying to learn a new way of singing lyrics. Very challenging, but I'm getting there. She is doing a guitar vocal to help me learn. Maybe after we get it nailed down and demoed, we can post it in open mic. I'll have to ask her about that first.


phil g.

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Phillip (phil g.) Grigg
#4116

Justin, I just went back and re-read your post about the girl you tried to co-write with, but she didn't like the song because it told a story and had too much detail in it. She just wanted to express HER emotions and let her audience interpret the song however they wanted to. It sounds like maybe she was an artist looking for a new song to play out? If that is true, I give you BIG CUDOS for walking away from that! LOL! NOTHING will RUIN your writing skills faster than writing those kinds of metaphoric poems someone wants to put to music! LOL Besides, you're already doing great with the artists you have been writing with. Go write another song!


phil g.

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Marc-Alan Barnette
#4117
Hey folks,

Had two more sort of humorous encounter with the music industry yesterday.

First of all, got an email from a song plugger I work with about songs. He said that we now have to be careful what we post on online sites, even our own web sites. Because record companies are not wanting to deal with songs that have been "released" with online pushes. So, as usual, the industry provides another wrinkle.  In order to get our music out there, we have to put it "out there." But if you put it :out there" to get awareness of yourself, you will not be allowed to have it "out there" by record labels. 
One of the reasons I have been very hesitant to post songs here or on many sites at all. But it is just another funny thing in dealing with the music industry.

The second was getting a phone call from a guy I have not talked to in over 30 years. His name is JIM CONNOR, and he lives in Sand Mountain Alabama. Some of you might have known about this guy if you ever were a John Denver fan. He wrote one of John's big hits, GRANDMA'S FEATHER BED" ,and was John's banjo and acoustic guitar player for a decade or more. He is a friend of a friend and called me to find out "what was going on in Nashville these days."

That was a fun phone call. LOL! He knows some of the things but doesn't quite understand everything. So I am having him up next month to spend a day and take him around and bring him up to speed. He is not looking for cuts or deals, just to reaquaint himself with the business. So I am going to get him together with some people that are fans of his and know his music. Should be a fun day or two. 

Always something interesting going on around here. Tonight is a trip down to East Tn. to do a show with Scott Southworth and Jeff Hudson. Fun little trip. Taking a coupole friends with me because Tina Dee Babe is sick and can;t go. 

Then next week, we head to DE ISLANDS MON, as we go to NEVIS, an Island in the West Indies. Tina's company is flying us down for a big working vacation. She is on some very successful sales teams so they reward their employees with these cool trips. So if you never hear from  me again, BE COOL MON!!!! I'll be down in de ISLANDS!!!!

MAB
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Peggy Burnham
#4118

Well an update on my dilemma. My meeting was changed yesterday to another location. We met at David's friend's house. He has sort of a recording studio. They made me a CD of him singing the song. They had done a little tweeking on the lyrics to suit them. I had prayed for peace and clarity on what I should do. I got just that. I am not going to record his version. It wasn't really what I  had in mind. After talking with them I feel very comfortable in sending my rewritten lyrics to someone else. The two versions are not going to be close to the same. Just similar.


I have a CD that I can send my friend, but I think I will wait and send him both at the same time.


I will have other opportunities to meet Brad Davis. I heard he is hosting some songwriters nights. I am trying to see if I can find out about them before hand so that I can make plans to attend.


All is well and a lot of worrying over nothing.

Peggy

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Wes Tibbets
#4119
Hi MAB,

The first of those stories sounds like a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. On one hand, you post songs in the hope that somebody may take notice and a door will open. And then on the other hand, if they do notice it, they won't record it and the door is slammed shut. To me, that is like Mark Zuckerberg telling his employees not to use the term "all lives matter" because "black lives matter" refers to the oppression of the black race. And yet there he is in the same breath oppressing others by denying them the right to their own opinions and free speech. Seems like a lose, lose situation any way you approach it. Specially for someone like me.

Sorry Tina is sick. I'm guessing it is the same thing you had last week just making its rounds through the house. I hope she starts feeling better and the two of you enjoy your vacation. Don't forget the sunscreen. And wear shorts when you go. You may regret it prior to leaving if the weather is cool but you'll definitely appreciate it once you hit the humidity of the islands. Best wishes!


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Justin Parker
#4120
Good stuff all,

LOL Phil, yeah I ran as fast as I could!!!

Peggy, glad you prayed and were reassured about your decision, remember what the good book says, "what man by worry can add an hour to his life?" It does no good!!! LOL

Have fun MAB

Off to a wedding of someone I don't know, time for some Texas two stepping!
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Wes Tibbets
#4121
Hi MAB,

We've discussed in some lengths about "bro country", "rap country" and the death of "bro country". Not only in correspondence between you and me but also it has been mentioned in here as well. Frankly, studying lyrics of the up and coming artists that Nashville pushed in 2015 and moving forward into what they plan to release this year, I wonder why they would be promoting these artists when many of them are primarily "bro country", "rap country" and songwriters who pulled their titles from the Urban Dictionary.

For example, I read a post on Facebook today that was titled, "Views From A Nashville Writing Sesh" in which these are examples of the material that came out of the session....

"The struggle is real
BAE you got me in the feels"

"Sorry I'm not sorry I'm givin' this vibe
IG on Fleek sittin' by the poolside"

"I'm never not ready to drop the tailgate
Thumbin' up something to dance to by Drake"

First off, I know BAE on the net means "Before Anyone Else" but it originates from a Danish term that means "poop". Second you have "IG on Fleek sitting by the poolside". I have no idea what the heck that means. In what way are either of those country? Is it a new style that is evolving from rap and internet slang? It seems like someone just opened the Urban Dictionary online and browsed it until they found a title to write around. Then in the last one, it is clearly reflective of not only "bro country" but "rap country" as well. Like a hybrid of the two.

Which also leads me to the question of the death of bro country. In 2015, we saw the emergence of artists like Cam, Canaan Smith, Michael Ray and Kelsea Ballerini among others. In 2016, the up and coming list of artists includes Lucie Silvas, Jon Langston, Brooke Eden, Two Story Road, Courtney Cole, Cane Brown, Post Monroe, Maren Morris, Tucker Beathard, Ashley Campbell (Glen's daughter), and LANco among others.

Now with the ladies, the lyrics are a lot of these Miranda Lambert "Girl Power" songs with slang interweaved in the titles and lyrics like "Dibs" for example. With the guys, when you go through their lyrics, it's a lot of country rock, bro country, country rap, urban dictionary slang interwoven from one lyric to another depending on the subject. But clearly with not only the up and coming male artists from last year but also the ones that are coming out in 2016, bro country is alive and well in songs like "American Muscle" by Canaan Smith, and others I can't recall off the top of my head. My question is, if it's a dead horse, why is Nashville promoting artists that specialize in that sound and style of songwriting? Do you see where I'm coming from? On one hand, you have this thought, fact, or rumor, whatever that labels are no longer taking bro country songs and that it'll be a dead form of music within I think it was six months. But on the other hand, the artists that they are investing in have obviously not only come from those roots but also are performing and writing that type of song. Why would they do that? It doesn't make sense from a business perspective if they've taken so much time to groom and promote these artists music only to drop their style flat out before they even really get started. And that even goes to more established artists as well. Like Florida-Georgia Line and others. If these songs are still burning up the Top 40 and making the industry money, I just don't see the logic to kick a gift horse in the mouth. Not that I'm doubting your word or anything. Please don't think I am. I've just been studying a lot of the songs that are out and the styles of the artists that are coming out. And man, I don't see it. I see a lot of styles in there along the lines I've mentioned. The one I don't understand and don't really care for is the social media slang like "BAE' or "IG on Fleek". And from what I can tell, Cane Brown is big on that rap roots country from at least a slang aspect.

I really thought about all of that a lot trying to make sense of it. One possibility that came to mind is something else you said about, and forgive me if I misquote you, that Nashville moves in "3's". By that, it occurred to me that the decision they are making now to quit accepting "bro country" songs reflects not what they did last year, next year or even the year after. But along the lines of 3 or 4 years from now. Because obviously, they are bound to have plenty of these types of songs stockpiled and ride out the last vestige of popularity regarding bro country based just upon what they already have. Is this a pretty good assumption?

Anyway, just curious. I know you've touched on the subject in previous posts. But when I read articles about up and coming artists that are coming out in the here and now with an eye towards a year long trend in music, it just doesn't seem to have any indications that it's anywhere close to being a thing of the past from the bro country aspect and from the aspect of the other styles, it looks like they are opening doors for Kanye West to have a future in Nashville. I can't help but think about what you said about you never leaving rock, rock left you. Kinda seems like country never left Nashville, Nashville is leaving country.Maybe not from a sound standpoint altogether but certainly from a lyrical standpoint. Of course, I'm not running anybody down. That's just my observation based on everything I'm reading and studying.

To be honest, from my perspective when it comes to writing styles. A lot of what they are doing is similar in many ways to my natural tendencies as I write. Not to say that I write songs as good as theirs. It's just that the writing style, use of slang, etc. are the stronger aspects of my writing style as well. I've pulled slang from the Urban Dictionary before. I'd be a liar if I said I haven't. But what I haven't done to my knowledge is go down the road of writing with social media terms like lol, bae, smh, ttyl, fyi. etc. etc. Sorry to write a book. I hope I haven't offended anyone. It wasn't my intention. I, just wanted to pick your brain a little more about this stuff. While I've been reading these articles and lyrics of and about up and coming artists, I couldn't get what you mentioned out of my thought process. And I admit, I became rather confused by it all. Thanks!

Wes
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Marc-Alan Barnette
#4122
Wes,

Welcome to the world of trying to figure out the music business. Let me give you a little tip. YOU CAN'T. If you remember I said "trends will usually be about three years. One to ramp up, one where it is everywhere, and one where it starts to diminish. Those are all loose interpretations, sometimes they take a little longer, sometimes a little slower. but here is one thing that you will never be able to figure out. What is going to happen next.

Now here is another thing that most people don't understand. Record companies throw HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of artists and songs at radio. They spend the same amount of money on the ones that fail, that succeed. My suggestion is wait and see where those artists are in the next two months, three months, how they do overall. Because you hear a lot of people out there, you think they are everywhere, and actually they are being manipulated by advertising, and you hear them but they have relatively little sales. And they are gone in a few months.

We just had the country radio seminar, which means you will see a lot of new things being tried. Same with movies. How many times do you see some movie commercial with some huge actor or actress, and it looks pretty stupid. you wonder "How did they even do that?" The thing is SOMEBODY green lighted it. Ever been to a movie store, netflix, etc. and seen all these things you either never heard of or seemingly were around about a week and then direct to video? Yep. there they are.

The record industry is hundreds of people all developing artists, putting things out there, and a lot of people LOSING JOBS. They sign terrible acts. They sign awful songs. That is a fact of life. And even when something SUCKS they still will throw things out. This town is PAVED with the corpses of "good ideas at the time." 

And there are also a lot lf things you may hear in a region but may be totally unheard of in another region. I would be willing to bet (and I know this happens too), that some of the songs you might be hearing in Texas, might be totally unheard in Boston, New York, Michigan, etc. Labels "test market" stuff all over and might pick up a lot of spins in a certain area and not get anything in another. So they will flood that area with money, touring, publicity, and ignore the rest. 

I have had a lot of people on this and other threads who see where some artist or writer got a number one award and they have never even heard the artist or song. The reason is they didn't focus attention on that market because it didn't test well in that market.

There have also been "radio hits vs. SALES hits. Did you know that songs like MARGARITAVILLE and AMERICAN PIE, never got beyond number TEN on the radio? Yet, you hear them almost every few days, on radio, television, in bars, done by classic cover bands. Conversely, have you ever heard some artist or song that was EVERYWHERE, one part of a year, you got SICK of hearing the song? Wonder where those people go? Well come to Nashville and you can find them. They are waitresing in resturants, working as dental assistants, two friends of mine who both had number one songs are UBER drivers. It is all very complicated and decieving.

Here is my deal. What I deal with on these types of threads is give the best  information I can. I use a variety of sources, from industry trades, to people I know very high placed in the industry, to actual artists AND hit writers who are friends of mine who are actually on the charts, to people involved viewing and working with the artists I help provide, which are quite a few. And I read lyrics, listen to songs and listen to what people are saying.

For instance on you. You are here because I pulled you aside and told you some things. The same things I told you are part of the WALL most everyone I know are hitting when they are trying to bring songs in, And if you think about it, you are answering yourself. It is EVERYWHERE. That means it is overdone. If you are hearing it on the radio, and you have to remember what you are hearing was probably recorded two years ago on artists that were signed three-four years ago on songs that were sometimes written five-eight years ago. It takes about that long to work things through the pipeline. So why would they need YOUR songs about the same thing. 

Another thing is LOOK at who wrote the song. Look at who are BEHIND the artist. Most of these are friends insiders, hit writers, producers with money to invest, are special tests to the labels. And there are a lot of "THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THAT WILL EVER WORK" people. you cannot explain it. It just happens. 

But my contention is that you see and hear a LOT of people that you are never going to hear from again in a few months. Look on the lyric threads you are on on various sites. Look at the songs. They are for the most part all winey, bro country, basically the exact same song over and over and over. They sound like every song on writers nights here over and over and over again. 

Are there some out there that defy descriptions? Yep. Sure are. A year ago, Megan Trainer was singing about "ALL ABOUT THE BASS." She and that song have been around for about four years. No one would touch it. It was considered stupid and no one would cut it. So she cut it herself and it went on to be a huge country and pop hit. It was a merchandisers dream and all worked well. You should have seen the industry  pros who rolled their eyes over that one.

Point is that you don't know. You have to write what you can, and try to get it out there however you can. But I will say this to you. I don't know you. But I don't think you are a 23-25 year old with model looks, chiseled features, rock hard abs, that is the pet project of some producer who also has ten other male and female artists who are doing the same, all getting songs produced on them, being taken around to every industry functions, hanging around the other 200-500 people doing the exact same thing being treated the same way. And your songs are not in a publishing catelogue that has been written by former writers that the labels are trying to moneytize, and being thrown out there. You are probably not someone  who has one and a half million  dollars invested in you and SOMEBODY says they are going to "make you a star." 

Or you are probably not a writer/producer/label person who has been in the business 20 years, had ten successive number ones on other artists, helped the label head get through their messy divorce and are one of their best friends. Most of the people you see out there have those kinds of stories behind the scenes.
I have also said that the music industry is about 10-15% you see, like an iceberg. It is 85% under the surface, behind the scenes. Most of it you simply can't explain.

As far as "what is happening in country?" I have no idea. It is a amalgamation of  a lot of things. Number one, the people who are coming into country now have other influences. They have rap, hip hop, urban, influences because that is what they grew up with. The people behind the scenes, label people, producers, even musicians, are from different influences. Country is a pretty big tent. You have those, you also have traditional like Brad Paisley, chick country like Kacey Musgraves. and yeah, you have BRO COUNTRY. Most of these never quite go away. The public just tires of them. That is another thing you have to understand. Just because you are seeing or HEARING something all over the place, doesn't mean they are MAKING MONEY. It just means that they are the flavor of the moment, and are being thrown out there to see what happens. And with around 90-95% of them. Not a lot is going to happen.

I have a greeting in this town. "Hi. I'm Marc-Alan Barnette. Who did you USE to be with?" The reason is that the majority of people you meet, writers, artists, label people, publishers, song pluggers, etc. USED to be involved in the music industry. Till they promoted things that didn't go anywhere that everyone SWORE were going to be the NEXT BIG THING. If you drive down the four blocks wide and eight blocks long of MUSIC ROW, you will see "FOR LEASE, FOR SALE, FOR RENT" signs all over the place. Those are all people that USED to have jobs, have businesses, have songs and artists trying to get on the radio. They USED to be somebody.

I can't tell you what to do. I can't predict the future. My role is to tell people what I see all the time, what my instincts are and what kinds of adaptations they should make if they want to be taken seriously. I know some pretty high level people in this town. I know what I could take them and what I ABSOULTELY CANNOT TAKE THEM. I also hear the things they say in private.  you should stand around in a industry packed bar at a showcase for some new artist and hear the big wigs, laughing about someone who is out there RIGHT NOW ON THE RADIO and how much they suck. But they are forced by corporate decisions to get behind that person. They talk about having to keep from "throwing up in their mouths" for having to promote some song or artist they really hate. One of my friends actually quit and walked out of his job at Warner Brothers as a Vice president because he hated the artists they were putting out. He predicted all of them would fail incredibly. They did. Every one that were put out by the label that year, AND got airplay, did big tours, had videos all over the place, failed and everyone involved in their signings lost their jobs.

This all started occurring to me early in this journey. I came into this town in 1988 and actually got a Shelby Lynne cut essentially my first night in town. I was able to write with a lot of high placed writers, be around a lot of movers and shakers. But even that it still took forever to gain a toehold. And I am a HELL OF A WRITER AND SINGER. But things just didn't quite work out for me, while a lot of my friends succeeded tremendously. That happens. For all those people you see out there, you should see the people that DON'T make it. For no reason at all. Amazing songs and writers and artists that you will never hear of. There are far more of those.

At any rate, one day in 1994 I was writing with a major hit writer at MCA music. That is the publishing company of MCA records, neither of which exist as they used to. In the writers room, there was this poster of 20 of the artists on MCA records from 1992. There were only TWO artists still recording for that label TWO YEARS LATER. The rest were DROPPED. Some got picked up on other labels, some still had careers, some were in Branson, etc. Most were just finding out they had had their moment in the sun. 

Now we have people that come on the scene at 8:00 in the morning, get a million viral hits, go to the top of I Tunes, make the news programs as the "fastest rising star in the history of whatever..." by noon, are the TOP VIDEO ON YOU TUBE, by three ocklock have their biographies online, 35 MILLION STREAMS, and by 8 PM, are on TMZ with their video of them getting into a fistfight being drunk in a Wendy's, and the next day are in the "Whatever happened to...?" segment on CNN talking about "the artist with the biggest FALL from grace. And the cameras all following him around covering his face, with the video of him cursing out some counter worker, or the dash cam video of his DUI arrest from the day before. 

Fifteen minutes of fame. That's what most people have.

I can't explain any of this to you. I can only say I have seen it over and over and over and over since I have been here. And I am a big student of music and cultural history. So I have seen where THAT has happened over and over and over and over again throughout history.

Wes, if you can figure all this out. The record companies would love to hire you as a prognosticator. Because you could save them a TON of money on wasted songs, trends, artists. Since they fail 8 times out of TEN with what they put out, they would love you.

But here is the deal with you and myself. If you continue to write that kind of stuff, there is NOTHING I could help you with. I couldn't introduce you to one experienced writer. One publisher. One artist trying to make their own way. Because I would lose my standing with those people. Same with all the artists and writers I work with as well as anyone on these or any other sites. When people are just doing the same things I see failing everywhere. I can't risk my own reputation on bringing someone to another level. They might find it with someone else. But not me. I can't put them on a show I am involved in. I can't suggest them to a writers night host. Just not anything I would do.

Others might. But not me. And that is the only person I am responsible for.

MAB
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Marc-Alan Barnette
#4123
The only door anyone here will be opening for Kanye West is the one to the insane asylum he belongs in. Very close to Adolph Hitler in popularity here. When you insult the top cash cow in an industry, it is doubtful you will find many allies. He has nothing to do with Nashville and Nashville has nothing to do with him. Wouldn't spend too much time worrying about that.

MAB
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Wes Tibbets
#4124
Gotcha. That's why I'm reluctant to pose questions. I know I'm over thinking things I shouldn't be. Applying techniques that have helped me in other things I've done well to a business where that mindset doesn't work. Trying to find a style to practice and a new idea for hooks in ways that will lead nowhere. My intentions are good but I'm going about it the wrong way. Same with my questions, I want to ask the right ones but I'm asking all of the wrong ones. 


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