Marc-Alan Barnette
#4125
Billboard's top 20 songs of the week and subject matter

1. THOMAS RHETT- DIE A HAPPY MAN. Love song to a woman

2. SAM HUNT- BREAK UP IN A SMALL TOWN- about losing a love song with a woman. Light syncopated lyrics influence

3. LUKE BRYAN- HOME ALONE TONIGHT (Duet) Picking up a woman in a bar. light syncopated influence

4. COLE SWINDELL YOU SHOULD BE HERE. Appreciating life's moments and missing a woman who is probably dead.

5. CARRY UNDERWOOD-  HEARTBEAT-A love song to a guy. Syncopatic lyrics.

6. KELSEY BALLERINI- DIBS. Current Urban female texting and love song to a guy.

7. BRETT ELDRIDGE- DRUNK ON YOUR LOVE- Love song to a girl. A little syncopated lyrics. How the guy is drunk on the love of the woman.

8. ZAC BROWN- BEAUTIFUL DRUG- love song to a girl and how she is intoxicating. How he is stoned on the girl's love.

9. KEITH URBAN- BREAK ON ME- Love song to a woman.

10. MAREN MORRIS- MY CHURCH- Song about singing and what country music does to her soul. Total Southern Gospel. Best of the bunch.

11. Florida Georgia Line- CONFESSION- Talking about a love song with a woman they miss.


12. RANDY HOUSER- WE WENT- OUTLAW COUNTRY- running off with a girl.

13. CHRIS STAPLETON- NOBODY TO BLAME- remorse over losing a woman. Swamp country. Traditional throwback.

14. RASCAL FLATTS- I LIKE THE SOUND OF THAT- Love song to a woman.

15. OLD DOMINION- SNAPBACK- Love song to a woman. A bit of the rapid fire lyrics. All about the girl.

16. CHASE RICE- WHISPER- love song to a girl. Syncopated lyrics. All about the girl and what he wants to do with her.

17. CHASE BRYANT- LITTLE BIT OF YOU- Calling the  woman for a late night booty call. Love song to a woman. All about the girl. Very rare to have two songs on the chart, particularly back to back.

18. DIERKS BENTLY- SOMEWHERE ON A BEACH- Down on the vacation. It is actually a continuation of the song "getting drunk on a plane. "Having a great time trying to get over the woman who dumped him on the way to their honeymoon. All about the girl.

19. LEE BRICE- THAT DON'T SOUND LIKE YOU- Missing the girl that left him who is thinking of getting back with him. All about the girl.

20. TIM McGRAW- HUMBLE AND KIND- Life lessons song ,about living a proper life. Tim and Kenny Chesney have been into the "Life reflections passing on positive messages for some time now. They are at that stage of their careers where they are looking back on everything and delivering moral messages. 

                                                                OVERVIEW

Wes, there you go man. The top 20 songs from BILLBOARD, which is the ONLY CHART THAT MATTERS. The BIBLE for the music industry. The rest are cheap knock off's, Internet based, and have limited listenership and responses.

  Ain't a "BRO-COUNTRY pick up, truck, party, out in the field, down by the river/lake/ocean buddy with my friends, how we roll, with the girl named GURL in short shorts, "song among them. Do you see any re-ocurring themes in any of them? EVERY ONE IS ABOUT FINDING, HOLDING ON TO, OR MISSING A MEMBER OF THE OPPOSITE SEX. If you continue going down to the top 25-35 (which are all that really count) you are probably going to find just about the same thing. 

Country music is almost always about:
REALITY
CONVERSATIONAL LYRICS
REINFORCING MELODIC HOOK THAT DRIVES THE HOOK HOME CONTINUALLY AND IS EASILY SINGABLE.

Every song is:
MEMORABLE
SINGABLE
RELATABLE

Every song has CLEARLY STATED, EASILY, SEEABLE, AND MEMORABLE, LYRICS. They SHOW, DON'T TELL the situation going on. Clear language about easy to digest subject matter.

See, it's really easy to hear a couple of songs that fit your perception of what is going on in music and to try and think or write toward that. Start breaking them down and they are far from what you think they might be, particularly in the case of regional or local hits. 

The only thing that is somewhat different than what I would suggest is rapid fire, syncopated lyrics in many of them due to an influence of hip hop. But we are in a more uptempo world, so that would play into how most people talk, think and act these days with all the information we are bombarded by constantly. I use it some but not as much as many because I don't like to force rhymes and being a big, belting singer, it gives me more room to sing and manipulate notes.AND I CAN'T REMEMBER ALL MY STUPID LYRICS!!!!!

 And the rapid fire nature with most writers, particularly amateur and newer writers, is that usually the lyrics are so jumbled and poorly written, you can't figure out what they are talking about even WHILE they are singing about it. And if you ask THEM, a lot of time THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE SINGING ABOUT. They are just following the rhyme. 

If you study a bit of the track record of the past three-5 years, these are the names you see at the top of the charts, nominated and winning the awards, on the front of magazines, commercials, and doing the public conciousness big tour business that is the engine of the music industry. To be honest, I haven't heard of one of the artists you mentioned. Which is why I think they might be more Texas artists than you realize. 

Sure you don't want to re-think all that "Bro-Country stuff?"

Skip all that nonsense and put a girl in it. You'll come away much better for it.

MAB
















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Marc-Alan Barnette
#4126
Wes Tibbets said...

Gotcha. That's why I'm reluctant to pose questions. I know I'm over thinking things I shouldn't be. Applying techniques that have helped me in other things I've done well to a business where that mindset doesn't work. Trying to find a style to practice and a new idea for hooks in ways that will lead nowhere. My intentions are good but I'm going about it the wrong way. Same with my questions, I want to ask the right ones but I'm asking all of the wrong ones. 







Of course not. You are asking good questions. If you see what I just did for you, I went down the top 20 country songs on the REAL CHARTS, which is BILLBOARD, and identified the style, subject matter and tone of every song. I think you will find the results interesting. You see, what you are doing are picking out a few examples that you hear, and drawing conclusions from that. A lot of it is based upon your experiences, which are actually pretty incomplete. Most people who are far removed from this don't see it. So you have to LOOK deeper, than just a few anecdotal things. 

From time to time someone thinks they have a few examples that PROVE that I am wrong and that things are changing in one way or another. They really are drawing the wrong conclusions based upon the wrong or limited evidence. That is what you have done here. No one has really taught you how to PROPERLY DO SONG SEARCH. And like everything that has to do with music there is MUCH MORE BENEATH THE SURFACE that most people don't even know to search for. 

Read what I have done and go check it out for yourself YOU TUBE at THE TOP COUNTRY BILLBOARD HITS.

You will probably find it is a LOT different than you realize.

MAB
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Marc-Alan Barnette
#4127
Wes,

You see, what the entire deal is taking the subject that is MOST EVIDENT IN THE HISTORY OF SONGWRITING. The pursuit, desire, having, losing, missing, and ruminating over LOVE. That is the common thread that runs through all songwriting because it is the most popular. it is what AUDIENCES are interested in. They are NOT interested in all that mopey, poor pitiful pissed off whiney crap that most amateurs are so prounounced in writing. And while you will get other subject matter, the "bro country" being one of them, most of those come and go like the wind.

BRO-COUNTRY is basically about THE PARTY. It is "HANGING AROUND WITH YOUR BROS." It is getting in your BIG TRUCK, CRANKING UP THE STEREO WITH (NAME ARTIST HERE) TUNES PLAYING LOUD, PICKING UP YOUR GIRL (NAMED "GURL" THROWING SOME COLD ONES IN THE BACK AND GOING WITH YOUR BLANKET DOWN BY THE (LAKE, RIVER, OCEAN) WHILE SHE DANCES IN HER SHORT SHORTS UNDERNEATH THE MOONLIGHT."

That is basically BRO COUNTRY. Yeah, it is STILL about the GIRL. But it is really about the PARTY! The girl is in it for good measure. (Unless you are GAY COUNTRY and that might be a different kettle of fish). There are variations on it, usually done with humor. (Something bout a truck.) Or poniency (I Drive your truck) but most likely it is about those elements.

Now, for the purposes of YOUR conversation, I will focus on that. You are in Texas, We have been through this with Justin before and if you back up a couple hundred pages, you will find where he came on board and was asking a lot of the questions you are asking. My answers to him then and my answers to you now, are very much the same. You are hearing things that are indiciative to Texas, but not quite known throughout the rest of the world. Texas a long time ago, decided to set themselves apart from the rest of things because it is...well.... the LONE STAR STATE. It prides itself on that, and should. But it is also quite insulated from other places. 

Many other places have tried this. Seattle Washington and the Seattle Grunge movement, Detroit with Motown, Athens Georgia and "REM alternative" music scene, Memphis with blues, Muscle Shoals with R&B and southern rock, Macon, Georgia and Jacksonville Fl. with Southern rockers, St. Louis with the Blues, Minneapolis with the Prince invasion, Compton, California with the hip hop and rap explosion, and various other niche markets will pop up and usually either gravitate to LA, New York or Nashville, or weed out and finally die in their own areas. They still exist but for most intents and purposes, are gone.

Technology has allowed people to exist in these and more areas, but when you are trying to climb the ladder into the actual MUSIC INDUSTRY, there are three basic areas. 

Texas has resisted most of that because it could. It had the roadhouses, enough population base, and other elements to support a vibrant music industry. It was able to insulate itself from most of the outside world for many decades. 

With globalization. that is happening more to more, now even to Texas. Market share, trying to expand the marketplace is growing in that area. And frankly, you guys are getting more and more of a Latino effect going on that will be radically altering music in the years to come. As the population grows in one segment, and another segment shrinks, the entire aspects of the culture tend to change. I'm not really getting into the immigration debate here, just saying your music scene is going to change a lot in years to come. Not good nor bad, it just is what it is. And you guys will either adapt or die. Just like the rest of the marketplace.

Now on the artists and songs you mentioned, including your observations on "bro country" I believe most of those artists are TEXAS REGIONAL artists and while they have some reach into other areas, are not as widespread as you seem to believe. As I had said about those "trends" dying out in most places, can linger on in Texas. It is more known in your area as "Dirt Road Texas." But that is simply BRO COUNTRY. Same deal.

I'll give you another example using myself.
I came from Alabama with a strong Gospel, Southern rock and blues background. The music I did was what I called "in  your face country soul" which mixed the bluesy based power vocals with big harmonies like the Eagles, and mixed in strong subject matter with some humor. But I was considered TOO BLUESY FOR COUNTRY AND TOO COUNTRY FOR BLUES. And since I focused more on the artist side as opposed to the writer's side, I frankly was ahead of my time and just missed the window. 
But now, nearly 30 years later, if you hear Chris Stapleton, Dierk's Bently , the Zac Brown Band, and the humor of Brad Paisely, you will see exactly what I was doing all those years ago. So ways that I write, perform and impart to others are elements of all those things. Now they have just caught up to me.

So I can view a lot of things we talk about here in quite a unique perspective. I've been sitting here waiting on it. It is why when I was asked by an industry person to "Find a younger YOU. " I was able to. His name was Frankie Ballard, and he has had three number one hits. 

So when I talk to you about trends, and things on the charts, what is working, what is not working and what will probably fade away, I might not be 100% correct, but I'll probably be closer to it than you realize. I live it.

But I also understand these other "behind the scenes" elements. One of the reason I have maintained my sanity when so many of my friends and associates have quit, gone crazy, dissappeared into drugs alcohol, or just gave up the ghost, is because I have kept a certain disconnected connection with it all. It is not clarivoyance, just kind of a common sense.

So you are not asking wrong questions, or even viewing it wrongly. But you are seeing it with less than complete information. That is what we will try to fill in. Hope it helps. Good to hear from you.

MAB
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Wes Tibbets
#4128
Thanks MAB,

I think I understand everything you mentioned. I made a mistake in what I wrote by referring to some of the styles I was studying relating to my own from a standpoint of lingo and so forth. When I saw you use the term "syncopated", that is more what I was meaning. A lot of what I write is syncopated type lyrics. I believe that it is because I can't bellow them out like you can. What little singing ability I have is served best by syncopated phrases.

Not that it is relevant now after what you wrote, but this is the source of those names of up and coming artists I mentioned earlier....11 New Country Artists To Watch For In 2016. Maren Morris who is at #10 on the chart you posted above is one of them. But anyway, that is irrelevant to the subject itself. 

OD and I have been communicating some today. He sent me some of the songs the two of you worked on together. He's helping me with some tips for "Plain Jane" to bring it around a little. I start work on Tuesday. I got a part time job working 5 hours in the early am 7 days a week. It will help supplement my income so I can put aside some money for some of the things I want to do. But mostly it's just another step along my path to returning to normalcy and defying the odds from a health standpoint. Everything about my world these days is baby steps. Anyway, thanks again.

Wes
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Marc-Alan Barnette
#4129
Wes,

Glad to hear you are talking to OD. He is not over here too much these days, but reads along and does talk to me a bit. He is a very good guy and actually very knowledgable. It is funny, that when I started working with him, four or five years ago, he was ready to quit and give  up on writing. I forced him to stick with it, and over the years have seen a big change in him and how he views and able to do things. The last couple of songs we have done together, he has done a majority of the work. Makes my job pretty easy. He has helped other people around here but wants to stay largely in the background. I respect that.

There is this old saying that sometimes the "BEST COACHES" were not that good players. And some of the BEST PLAYERS don't make good coaches. I think OD, has developed a coaching sense about him. I have seen him offer suggestions to other people's work that are EXACTLY what I would tell them. He has been working hard to develop his songwriter sense and I think he is doing well. You would be doing well to listen to him. He can help you a  lot.

If you got one of the "people to look for" articles, those are put together by promotion companies sponsored by the record labels. Part of the "Two point five million dollars" it takes to promote artists in the modern era. It will cost about $400,000 to $7 or -$800,000 to record an album, and the rest is spent on promotion, advertising campaigns and money to run the buses, the bands, the touring. It is HUGELY expensive. So they promote (HYPE) all these new artists, and you are seeing some of that. A little "special money" spent with a few well placed critics and you can see money going out all the time. 

A record label will have 12-15 artists signed at any one time. All of those are getting the same money. Most of the time, artists have to come up with "matching funds", which means they have to come up with outside investors to pay part of their development costs. That is why it is important to find artists who have significant audience fan base where they are already making waves before record labels even get involved. 
Out of those 12-15 are dozens like the ones you mention. They release songs in different markets, saturate that market with touring, radio advertising, and as much activity as they can. Those artists are working or traveling 14-16 hours a day, doing unlimited interviews, and logging thousands of miles. It's very grueling.

And then, around November, the PROFIT AND LOSS numbers start coming in, and all but about 2-3 artists on those labels are dropped. That is why I suggested you watch and see what those artists do in the months and year to come. My guess is that you will never hear most of them again. There are a LOT more ONE HIT WONDERS than there are long term careers. Most are flash in the pans.
Like that old Joke:

"KNOCK KNOCK.."
"WHO'S THERE?"
(NAME AN ARTIST FROM LAST YEAR)
???? WHO?"

TOUGH BUSINESS AIN'T IT?"

So yes, there might be some new "bro country" as well as some of the other influences you mentioned. Doesn't mean they are going to last past that press release.

On the "Syncopated" lyrics, it is a very delicate issue for newer or less experienced writers. More rapid fire lyrics mean more rhymes. More rhymes mean that it often will go "DR. SEUSS" on you quickly. 
"I do not like green eggs and ham, I do not like them SAM I AM."

My personal problem with them is that for the most part they just sound stupid and forced rhyme. Most of the songs I looked at for you today, had certain rapid fire lyrics in them. Some were pretty decent, some were that stupid forced rhymes. But most of them were pretty clear in what they were talking about. 
Those are the pros that do that. 

In writing sessions they usually have an artist who will "da da..." his singing patterns. They are usually dummy syllables, just to determine a rhythmic pattern. Then, usually more experiened writers will work with the singer on what they want to say and then use their craft to fill in the "da da's" with "Real lyrics. 

So if you do it, be careful. If you can't give your lyrics a "read aloud" test, where you actually READ the lyrics out loud to see if it would be natural in a conversation, you are probably not in the ball park. If you want to do some more song study, pull up each of those songs lyrics, and see how they read in the "speak out loud" test. Break them down and see how they flow, if they make sense or if they sound silly and superficial. My guess is that they will sound just like two people talking. 

That is the craft.
MAB

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Marc-Alan Barnette
#4130
Wes,

I looked at your list of artists. About three I recognize from seeing them around here. These are not people with deals. These are all people who are being produced by hit writers or producers, people who have been on major tours with people like Miranda Lambert, and Lady A. This is sort of an advertisement in the press to PRESENT them for record deals. Part of the hype of artists these days. They all have stuff on You Tube, and many, are building fan bases by constant touring. If they can achieve significant numbers with crowds and merchandise sales, and have a significant viral presence, they might get some attention from industry higher ups. These are all the types of people that were at the recent COUNTRY RADIO SEMINAR, being walked around from booth to booth, table to table, and feted as the "next big things" coming out.

These kinds of lists, put on the Internet, in major trade magazines, getting reviews around the country, testing in marketplaces, are all part of the PUBLICITY CAMPAIGNS for these artists. Most of them are in some form of "development deal', which means they are being promoted by those hit writers, established artists and writers, managers, it's almost a "vote for me" kind of things you are seeing in the political campaigns. Which is what about 90% of the music business has to do with. 
PURE POLITICS.

They kind of all have the "regular artist LOOKS", about them, the rugged "street kid" trying to tie in hip hop, the married duo, the hot girl trio (you recently might have seen the video of "FANTASY FOOTBALL TEAM" where a trio of girls is doing one of my songs, the same things) the hot looking guys, young looking girls, etc. They are all pretty much the same.

So I wish them luck. There are literally MILLIONS of them. Of this list, and hundreds like it, one or two will probably get a deal, the "My Church" girl probably has one if she is on the charts. Most will dissappear or continue their own career path, on I Tunes, Reverbnation and by touring in their areas or regions. 

So while I understand where you might draw conclusions that the "bro-country" or other trends are being established by these types of artists, they are really not. They are just "trial balloons" being floated out there by publicity firms, private investors and in some cases the record companies themselves seeing if they should get more involved with the artists. They see what catches on with the public. Most don't. It is called "GAINING TRACTION." Hard to do.

It's all political manuvering. But people actually DO believe in them and are promoting. They do have shots at things. But until they get chart success, and have a LOT of fans, are they really going to get a substantial investment from the industry in the way of time or money. And get this. In order to GET substantial time and money from the industry, they are NOT GOING TO GET CHART SUCCESS! 

Talk about a conundrum. Ever heard that before?
"How do you  get a job without experience?"
"How do you get experience without a JOB?"

Tough business ain't it?

MAB
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Justin Parker
#4131
Great convo, I just heard Sam Riggs We Were The Lucky Ones, the first couple lines into the song... "3-6 up and the windows down" I had to LOL he is twenty five and that spoke to my youth!!! Most will have no clue what he's even meaning, probably very, very few will catch it's meaning. Yep hip hop is creeping further in, now their getting specific!!! LOL

Wes,
Don't trust OD, he was once in TOOTSIES and will swear he was in a gift shop... He's a good guy though.
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Wes Tibbets
#4132
Hi Justin,

Lol,OD didn't say anything about that stuff. He just gave me a few pointers to consider on a song I wrote. He was very helpful.

I had to Google "3-6". I had never heard that before. Imagine my surprise when I found the answer in the Urban Dictionary. And people make fun of us Texans using terms like "yonder" and "y'all".  But they are okay referring to their significant other as "poop" in Danish (BAE). Go figure. No wonder the average American IQ has dropped almost 10 pts. in the past decade. Social media acronyms and ghetto slang have ruined the English language. 
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Justin Parker
#4133
LOL Wes not sure what urban dictionary told you but... "Turning up 3-6" He's referring to 3-6 Mafia.... I just thought wow did he really say that??? But MAB don't like the R word so I'm going to digress... LOL next topic.
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Wes Tibbets
#4134
Hi Justin,

I saw a reference to 3-6 Mafia in the Google Search but the term "3-6" goes further back according to the Urban Dictionary as a ghetto term that has to do with weed. So I didn't originally connect it to the 3-6 Mafia aspect. I assumed he was talking about putting a doob in his mouth and rolling down the windows. But I can see where it would be to turn up 3-6 Mafia songs and roll the window down as well. Either way, it was a foreign term to me.
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Arty Redsocks
#4135

Now there has been some great discussion here re; writing and getting out and actually trying to write for an audience. I can honestly say that by going to 3-5 open mics a week for about 5 years with a variety of age groups, I work more successfully at the 18-25’s than my age group or the mid 30 – 40 hippy Eagle lovers.

I do have some 4 minute+ songs which work but mostly I am between 2.00 and 3.30 minutes, tempos from 85 to about 180 bpm, so I have worked on the full gamut actually. Love songs from a whole lot of angles and emotional viewpoints, story songs and some rather humorous ones which may peep over the fence of smutty but are very radio friendly.

It is a buzz when the audience gets it, the intent is always there but I am a big believer in the numbers, if you aint writing enough not enough will get through the fan!

I still don’t know how good my music is or more importantly my lyric whether it is commercially viable etc. My recordings are rather single shot blahhh, (they are post notes not recordings lol).

Having now completed another FAWM and I took it quietly this year with just the 50 ( 30 odd with mostly average one shot melody) there were a lot of road / away songs no doubt influenced by my son leaving to pursue his dream of music in London last Thursday for two years.

I now feel along with the 400+ from the 50-90 last year I am ready to take the next step and capable of not (always) stuffing up if I had to write up. Eighteen months more than I anticipated but the last two 50-90’s and FAWM were important for me to test myself under constraints of time to produce a draft of reasonable quality which made story sense, impacting on the chorus is a different way each time.

Now having tried reasonably hard to develop relationships with players here, no Gherming, see the best way is to get on the circuit and play out so am starting up “Arty Redsocks and the Holey Soles” along with another project with some of my Old Timey friends doing some forgotten Bush Poet’s prose into song along with originals written for this market.

But after watching one of our pre-eminent ‘country’ performers and some say songwriter, last Saturday night I think I finally understand why not many great artists are great writers. Simply it is too easy to take short cuts as they are able to fudge over poor lyric with melodic rises etc. that sound great but leave an empty hole behind. My God you appreciate their singing and playing talent but the giant gap in the lyric tale is why the songs don’t last past the next swig of beer.

There are a lot of people who believe in QUALITY OVER QUANTITY. And that is true. But till you get QUANTITY, you don't get QUALITY. It is a physical impossibility.

So some really great Nashville writers will get more information in a song, in two verses, usually than most people take in four verses. There will be more hooky songs, and more layered information. In Texas, with the long standing "around the campfire" songs, they will take a long time to tell their story. That works when you are the only one out there doing something. When you are in with thirty to fifty other writers, all waiting on their shot, it changes a lot. People tune out faster.

And that is our current mentality in the general public. We call it "Don't bore us, get to the chorus."

That is the main difference in Texas and Nashville. Some like it, some don't. But if people want to come here, they need to live it, learn it, love it. And it makes you be a better, more effective writer. I have never yet met anyone that enjoys being tuned out.

MAB

This is so pertinent to too many songs and trying to be nice about it has been difficult, then, the separation of ideas between verses and the chorus arghhhhh….. then Dr Zeus rhyme patterns, then clichés…

I do jest everyone has to start and learn then develop the techniques and this is where the site I important, it is where critiquing is important to development, this also has to be learnt, then writing more is important…..

I do wish more would get on the lyric site and post and comment and not just one moment reflections but really try and make a difference to others writing, we all start from the bottom, so why not commit to say 2 critiques a week and post two yourselves. This site would be better off and more viable. If we are not writing songs, what are we doing?
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John Westwood
#4136
good to see you back , Arty.

FY'all info.

Arty lives about an hours drive from me  but we rarely catchup
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Justin Parker
#4137
I hate to switch topics but first I wanna state opinions for no reason off MABs list, then pose an unrelated question...

1.) I really love the song "My Church" it speaks to me which is obviously one reason, but it's a refreshing change. Out of his list I've really grown to enjoy "Humble & Kind" By: Tim McGraw it's just sooo simple, you just say "man I wish I could've wrote that" but I didn't so I'll just have to enjoy listening, it's not one I'd listen to repeatedly, but I enjoy the solid song and the message...

2.) Wes, while I was never a huge 3-6 fan they did win a Grammy if I'm not mistaken, but a couple of their hits a few years ago included "ridin spinners" the song responsible for the nationwide craze of the rims that keep spinning once the vehicle stopped, the spread that nationwide. Also, their song "Ever since I can remember I been poppin my collar" another song that set a nationwide style trend you'll recall where guys would where polo shirts with the collar folded up... Yeah they made that fad nationwide. Enough rap talk for the moment, MAB will need to stock up on maalox...

3.) Now my question... While it's no surprise the only song I've ever enjoyed from Luke Bryan was cowritten by Chris Stapleton, I've had for the past few weeks he's at the risk of "over exposure" sure he's starting to make folks harken back to that old rugged country, and he is not new to NASHVILLE but to 99% of America he's an overnight sensation!!! And he's everywhere!!! T.v., Radio, but my main concern is him being the CENTRAL topic de jure of the nation! I fear he's gonna be over exposed and next year he'll just be "last years news" I sincerely hope I'm wrong and MAB I need a reason not to worry about him LOL I hate to see such talent lost to this generations short attention span, I honestly wish people would stop talking about him for a while, for HIS sake, MAB tell me I'm wrong, I'm trying to use your advice to judge the future by the past of folks careers LOL I just see this coming down the pike! Tell me I'm wrong??!!!
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Wes Tibbets
#4138
I do wish more would get on the lyric site and post and comment and not just one moment reflections but really try and make a difference to others writing, we all start from the bottom, so why not commit to say 2 critiques a week and post two yourselves. This site would be better off and more viable.

Hi Arty,

I agree with what you wrote to a degree. I've wondered to myself why the lyric forum doesn't receive the traffic that other songwriting sites do. I haven't been on here regularly enough to know why that is or even to begin to speculate the reason for that.

I've been a member in songwriting forums since 2004. I was also a moderator for the lyrics forum on another site for awhile. From my experience, a lot of people don't care to give critiques because they are rarely received well. Specially among new writers. Most people would prefer to have the gratification of others simple comments about how much their material is loved rather than being told the truth. And then their are those who give the critiques that have yet to distinguish the difference between constructive critiques and non-constructive critiques. Personally, I believe in building people up instead of tearing them down. So when I give a critique, I always try to point out the positives and the negatives instead of just harping solely on one or the other.

That noted, I still have experienced 100's of writers who become "booty hurt" over even the most constructive critique. They don't realize that even though someone compliments their writing and means well, they really aren't helping the writer to better their music or their skills. Which is why 9 out of 10 lyrics posted on a lot of these sites is of very poor quality. More poem than lyric. Lacks structure, rhyme scheme, story line, syllable counts, a decent hook, and many of the other things that are important to writing a good song. And that includes me too. Even after all of these years, I struggle daily with coming up with something that is new, refreshing and covers all the basics.

But then there is a second side to that. Even if someone comes in here or the lyric forums on other sites, works hard to develop their writing, and puts their best foot forward, it is only a matter of time before they learn the truth from people with experience in the business. And the truth is, there is no future for them in the business. Even if they are talented, sing well, play well, write well, the odds are still stacked against them. And the fact is, most of them are just lyricists and/or porch pickers like me. I've had too many people than I can count tell me that they quit coming in and writing just because they read through these forums and everything was absolutely designed to discourage by giving them honest, true advice. It's a double edge sword.

Personally, I would prefer that people are honest with me than to beat around the bush and pull a Nashville Song Service or Paramount just to rip me off and give me hope when there is none. Plus, I find it to be a good way to express myself. I have other reasons to do it as well but I'm not going to itemize every one of them. Because the truth is, that isn't the point of this post.

If you read the posts I do in the lyrics forum, you will always see that I begin the post with..."Constructive comments, suggestions, crits and collabs are welcome and appreciated." I think if someone wants a crit, they should ask for one. Otherwise it just opens the door to a lot of bickering and confrontation that is totally unnecessary. And by asking for one and noting that they would prefer it to be constructive, they are letting anybody who chooses to do one (if they choose to) know that just coming in and ragging on something for the sake of being a jerk is unwanted, unappreciated, and will have its repercussions. I learned that it is the best route to take and by doing so, it avoids a lot of unnecessary arguments.

Simply making crits a requirement isn't a novel idea. It has been tried before in other sites. Maybe even in this one. And it creates more headaches than is worth the trouble. I've been there, seen the results, and wouldn't recommend it.

Just my two cents worth.
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Marc-Alan Barnette
#4139
Ah yes, the Aussie's and Ravemaster J. and Western man are ALL in DA HOUSE!!!! yo. yo, wat up!!!!" (Is that STREET ENOUGH FOR YOU GUYS?" lol!)

Yes, Justin is correct that I could do without the "R" word. (Rap for those of you just tuning in. and when you mix it with Country,  you get....well you figure that one out). The problem that I have is two fold. One is CULTURAL. I don't like what it's influence have done to society. I grew up in Birmingham Alabama and started seeing those results in the 80's. It is worldwide now. Not that it is responsible for the fall of humanity, but let's just say it has hastened it's demise. I don't like Racism in any form, even when it is reversed, which of course if you were able to make it through last nights "White People self Flagilation Awards" you saw on full display. 

The second is purely musical. To have as many rhymes as are needed in Rap and Hip hop, you have to resort to sophomoric, nonsensical "Dr. Seuss" Rhymes that sound like a third grader would write. All the beats are exactly the same (EXACTLY THE SAME CRITIQUES ALL OF COUNTRY HAS BEEN GETTING FOR THREE YEARS) and the artists are interchable. Talking about all the broke street stuff while living in enormous mansions,laying on piles of cash. Gets pretty insulting. And the treatment of women, and the rest of society is pretty deplorable.

Enough of my message. Take it or leave it.

Justin, do you know why there IS a Chris Stapleton in the first place? Because the previous "Chris Stapleton, Jamie Johnson, has turned into pretty much a flake. He stays stoned most of the time, doesn't show up for shows or interviews, and is kind of in the nebulous world of "WHATEVER." 
He dropped out and Nashville always has to have a "token REBEL." He grows the long hair, says things (that I agree with actually) and is a throw back to "going your own way." Image is as carefully crafted as any of the polished images out there. 
Nashville and country has always had em'. Willie, Waylon, David Allen Coe, Hank Jr. Travis Tritt, you name it, there always is one. And the rebel image is put together just like all the other images are. He'll be around for his three year run until the next one comes along, who will be pretty much the same thing. 

This is like sports now. What do you see? Athletes come up playing football, basketball, baseball, build press through high school, make all the sports shows in college, get drafted by the pros, have about a three year career and then are hurt or replaced by the next person coming along with a similar image. So enjoy it while you can.

Sooner or later, (after the Grammy glow wears off) he will start saying things that ruffle feathers. He will make some disparaging comment that offends people. Or have his picture taken by some dead animal on a hunt he went on. If you really listen to the comment it won't be that offensive, but the 24 hour talk show cycle, the constant TMZ of the press, the continuous drum for MORE quotes, will start taking a life of it's own. The people he offends will start screaming for boycotts of his shows. There will be supporters and detractors on all the News talk shows screaming at each other and THEY will become part of the story. Someone WITHIN the industry will get on THEIR soapbox and start screaming about how "ALL of the MUSIC BUSINESS IS INSANE TO SUPPORT THIS GUY." They will start wearing the "F**K Christ Stapelton t-shirts. He will be pilloried in the press, FACEBOOK will explode, and all your friends, or those you thought were your friends, will be saying HORRIBLE things about him and his family all over Twitter and Facebook. 

Then, they will start hating ANYONE who supports him and YOU will be portrayed as a RASCIST/SEXIST/ANIMAL HATER/BABY HATER/NAZI/CRIMINAL/KKK MEMBER/ (whatever you can think of) and YOU and YOUR FAMILY SHOULD BE DESTROYED and the cycle of hate will continue.

THE CIRCLE....IT'S THE CIRCLE OF HAAAAAAATTTTTTTTEEEEEEE!!!!"

There'll be the "Hate Chris the HATER" parties, burning his CD's, the cover bands refusing to do his material. 

He'll ride the publicity for a while, then retreat from  it all going through a near mental break down. And wind up on a farm somewhere smoking weed with Jamey Johnson, burned out. 

If it was rock or pop, they would find him dead in a bathroom in a seedy side of town, with a  needle in his arm. With country, they just tend to dissapear, have loyal fans, play from time to time, but mostly keep a low profile.

So that's what I think the future holds for our buddy Chris. Don't you love the music business?

MAB
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Marc-Alan Barnette
#4140
Wes,

People don't comment on lyric forums, because they don't feel qualified or REALLY DON'T CARE. Everybody wants everybody else to "LIKE" them. That is it. And they want a back door short cut to the music industry. So they are not particularly interested in real crititques, which is why most of the devolve into insulting messes. The people get offended, then leave, never coming back.

Another part is the "respect factor." When you hear other people's material, songs, lyrics, etc. and they are not much better than  your own, you are less likely to have a respect for that person's opinion. It takes a  very special person to be able to comment on things, giving solid opinions, backed by abilities. You have to consider the source. 

In 100% I have similar problems with people who have not stood on a stage, tried to do this in front of audiences and tried to deal with the personality quirks of an industry built on personalities and egos. Because there is ALWAYS the "How did THAT get on the radio?" Part of the equation. And there are many things that go BEYOND the song. I've named a few of them in the past few posts. It's basically a lot of "Monday Morning quarterbacking" and it doesn't make a lot of sense. So you are going to have a lot of "AMATEURS commenting on AMATEURS." Pros just don't do it.

My suggestion has always been, "Pat on the back in public, Give REALITY in private." Everyone should be building their own friend base, of people they trust. They should be able to converse away from the public forums and give their opinions. But if you build relationships, you don't have to spend a lot of time defending those opinions. 

All of it is a crap shoot. We should all be developing our own personal networks away from the forums. WE need to step out into the real world, which is what I talk about all the time.

Oh well. You guys have a good one.

By the way, Wes, I haven't heard anything on the chart break down I did from you. I went through a lot of time and effort to do that. Hope it makes some sense to you. Would like to get your observations. The other reasons a lot of people DON'T participate more is when they expend a lot of effort and don't get much in the way of repsonses.

MAB

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Wes Tibbets
#4141
Hi MAB,

I thought I did when I posted this....

I think I understand everything you mentioned. I made a mistake in what I wrote by referring to some of the styles I was studying relating to my own from a standpoint of lingo and so forth. When I saw you use the term "syncopated", that is more what I was meaning. A lot of what I write is syncopated type lyrics. I believe that it is because I can't bellow them out like you can. What little singing ability I have is served best by syncopated phrases.

To be honest, beyond the fact that each song represents a songwriter who wrote a song in a clever new way to say the same thing that has been played a million times, the only thing that I could possibly say positive about the pop country 40 is that I'm glad I learned that the term I've been searching for is "syncopated" lyrics.  Because the truth is, the only real opinion I could give on that list if I did it in depth wouldn't be anything positive. Because I don't see it as an industry professional. I see it as an old school fan of country music, club dj and amateur wordsmith. And in all honesty, my interests are better served if I don't take it any further than that.

Hope you are doing well.
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Marc-Alan Barnette
#4142
Wes,

What I was really speaking to was your perception that "everything was still bro-country" and the view points you had. When you break most music down, it is about members of the opposite sex.That is about 98% of music, because it is what most people who LISTEN to music are into. You see, I think that songwriters who have come into this over the past 15 or so years, who I refer to as "living room" writers, have a VERY mistaken point of view when it comes to music. Almost every lyric forum, outside song, songwriters forums, contests, REVERB NATION, YOU TUBE, FACEBOOK, you name it, hearing the TONE, subject matter, and attitudes of their writers/artists are whiny, negative, plodding, meandering pieces of mediocrity. And of course, these are people who are always upset about what is on the radio, always think the "music business sucks", etc. I tend to think that THEY are the ones who SUCK.

But I also have huge sense of music history trends and the overall industry in terms of THE AUDIENCES. So that is what I was talking about. When you look at the ACTUAL songs that are on the charts, and find out it is not as pervasive or what you thought it was, how does that affect how you look at the overall music business? Not nessasarily, to change your writing or anything, but how you look  at the actual business.

That is what I was interested in.
MAB 
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Wes Tibbets
#4143
The truth is, I was misinterpreting the idea of bro country. Which you have cleared up. You defined it pretty well with this....

BRO-COUNTRY is basically about THE PARTY. It is "HANGING AROUND WITH YOUR BROS." It is getting in your BIG TRUCK, CRANKING UP THE STEREO WITH (NAME ARTIST HERE) TUNES PLAYING LOUD, PICKING UP YOUR GIRL (NAMED "GURL" THROWING SOME COLD ONES IN THE BACK AND GOING WITH YOUR BLANKET DOWN BY THE (LAKE, RIVER, OCEAN) WHILE SHE DANCES IN HER SHORT SHORTS UNDERNEATH THE MOONLIGHT."

As far as what I think about the business, I'd rather not voice my opinion if that is okay. I really don't see what good it would do me. My viewpoint is one of fan, dj, and wordsmith. Nobody in Nashville or the business of it cares about what guys like me think. If they did, they wouldn't put out a lot of the songs they do. From the outside looking inside, it seems Nashville pays too much attention to misleading statistics. Radio stations report their airplay and adds. Most of the requests come from bored housewives and office workers. The blue collar working man isn't in work environments where they can spend all day making requests or if they work outside, don't even have the opportunity to listen to music much. From a dj standpoint, I wouldn't play more than maybe a half dozen of those in the top 40 tops. Otherwise, I would never get a gig or keep it. When people go to clubs, they want to party. They don't want to listen to the same recycled love, love gone wrong type stuff that is jammed down their ears all day on the radio. 

Honestly, I'd say 90% or more people I know don't listen to modern Nashville music at all. They will turn to a traditional classic country station, red dirt country station, classic rock or hard rock. Modern or as it is commonly known "pop" country, rap and pop music are at the bottom of their choices. And truly, most of the people I know are country through and through. They are the same types who fueled the country music craze in the early 90's from a fan perspective. But when Nashville started going another way in 95 or thereabouts, everybody drifted away and went back to other things. They have been brought back in the fold to some extent by songs like "Drink In My Hand", "Country Man", "These Are My People", "Something To Do With My Hands",  and "Something About A Truck"  along with similar types of song but in the last couple of years as more of the rap slang has emerged, they've gone back to switching stations rather than listen to that. They don't watch CMT either because of either their opinions of the music and the artists or because of reality tv shows like Party Down South.

Truly, I'm the most open person when it comes to music that I know. I like it all or at least I try to. I'm a liberal in a conservative world. I think that I really sugar coated things here with my answer to your question, "What do I think about the business?" But I'm not going to put myself on an island by answering it any more than what I have. And that is from the outside looking in. Because that is the only view I have. From the Nashville perspective, "What do I know about it?" From the rural country fan/lifestyle perspective, "What does Nashville know about it?" The answer to both of those questions is , "Nothing."
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Phillip (phil g.) Grigg
#4144

Hey MAB. Just let you know, I appreciate the work you did on that billboard list. As a matter of fact, I have "Billboards Hot Country Songs" bookmarked, and from time to time will check it out. Mostly just to make sure what I'm hearing on my radio station here is really "current" country. For the most part it is. AND by the way; I am NOT one of those who complains about todays country and how it "sucks" relative to "how it used to be". I really don't even listen to yesterday's music that much.


And in addition to simply finding a you-tube of the artist performing the song, I will also go find a site that gives me the chord progressions. It's hard to find a site that also shows the timing, so when I listen to the artist, I listen to the drum beat along with the chord progression I found to determine the chord timing. Then I may go watch a "how to play it" video. I have yet to learn how to play any of the current songs, but I do use that study to help me when I (finally do) start a new song. In my writings, I try to keep the lyrics simple and conversational. And I try to use simple chord progressions. Usually a 1, 6m 4,5 or maybe a 2m or 3m in there also with/instead of the 6m. And I want to use the same kinds of chords, progression, and rhythm as what is current on the radio. YES, I understand most of this will be "outdate" in about 3-6 years, but If you don't at least start with what is current, you may never be able to keep up with what will be coming tomorrow.


One song on that list that really fascinates me is Thomas Rhett's, "Die A Happy Man". Love the simplicity of the chord progression, and that (syncopated?) slap rhythm. I've watched a couple of "how to" videos, but I still can't get the hang of that rhythm. The chord progression is really simple. But the rhythm used is very complicated. To me.


Thanks again MAB, for all the time you take taking care of us.


Speaking of taking care of us, have you all read the message from Eddie at the top of the home page? Sounds like this may be the Ramps last year. We need to figure out a way to help these guys out. Both $$ and time.


phil g.

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Marc-Alan Barnette
#4145
Wes,

I appreciate your opinion. We hear it a lot. Have been hearing it for quite some time. A couple of things you said, are probably the key:

"it seems Nashville pays too much attention to misleading statistics."

Honestly, I'd say 90% or more people I know don't listen to modern Nashville music at all.

That is the same mistake most people make. First of all, if  you want to see the strength of modern country music, all you need to do is look around you. On every major magazine, in nearly every commercials, on major televison, like on the  two biggest music related shows, American Idol and the Voice. you have country celebrities. It is in major motion pictures. The ACM  and CMA awards are nearly the same ratings as the Grammy's. It is one of the strongest formats there is and growing. The numbers in touring, merchandising, it is nearly unparalelled. That is the "real statistic." Purchasing and media power. So actually, it's not Nashville that is believing misleading statistics. One of the reasons I broke down the songs, was because you were presenting a quite incorrect portrait of it.

You also have to be cautious of using personal antecdotes in predicting current media and cultural phenomenons. 

I just kind of have to correct things when I see them because this is a perception that is made all the time. And always is just as wrong. 

It is just CULTURAL AWARENESS.

In order to participate in a business, you have to understand what that business entails.

Yes Phil, the Ramp is having difficulties and Eddie is trying his best to save it. I don't know if this will be the last year or not. I know I'll try to stick with it as long as there is a reason to do so. As long as some of you are around. I have enjoyed my time meeting everyone and spending time on these and more subjects. All good things come to an end at some point, and it might be the time. But until that, I'll still be around. Let me know what you want to talk about.

MAB

 
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Wes Tibbets
#4146
MAB,

That is why I was partially reluctant to say that. I can't talk about the business from a producer or record label executive standpoint. I don't see what they see. I'm not in their world.

My perspective come from decades from being a dj in night clubs, at music festivals, barnyard parties etc. I can give several examples of that just from my perspective.

When I was in Greensboro, NC in late Spring 2000, some guys I worked with and I went to a big country bar there. It was either a Friday or a Saturday, can't remember which. The place was pretty full though. When we arrived it was about 8-8:30 so it was still pretty early. By 10-10:30, there were only a handful of people on the dance floor. Everybody else was sitting at their table and it was one of the quietest country bars I'd ever been to.

I went to the bar to get a round of drinks and I overheard a bartender talking to the manager behind the bar. The manager was complaining about the dj. He made a remark to the effect that the guy was clueless to what people wanted to hear. I returned to my table, did a few shots, made up my mind about something and went looking for that manager. I introduced myself, gave him my business card and a brief background about my experience as a dj. And in my slightly inebriated state, I came right out and told him that if he wanted to get the party going, let me in the booth. He said he'd think about it.

So I went back to my table. This was roughly 10:30 ish. The dj was playing Top 40 Country exclusively and had been all night. About 15 minutes later, the manager came to my table and told me he was thinking about giving the dj a break and if I wanted to fill in for a few minutes, he wouldn't mind giving me a shot. Well, I filled in more than a few minutes. I filled in the rest of the night. The dance floor was full. Everybody was drunk off their butts and at the end of the night, I was offered a full time job by a drunk manager who never took the time to look at my business card long enough to realize I was from Texas.

The entire time I dj'd that night, I played maybe 3 or 4 Top 40 songs. If I recall correctly, I began the evening with the club mix of Tracy Byrd's "I'm From The Country". And I kept it hell raising redneck the rest of the night littered with the occasional waltz, cotton eyed joe and line dances. Even an occasional classic rock song like Take It Easy or The Georgian Satellites, "Keep Your Hands To Yourself". 

Because I liked doing it, I started doing it any time I went somewhere that had a country bar. Sometimes I got to dj. Sometimes I didn't. But every time I did in places like Greensboro, Macon, GA., Richmond VA., Albuquerque, NM., it was the same results. A lot of energy, a lot of drinking songs and a lot of liquor sold behind the bars. It's a formula I've kept through all of my years as a dj. And for me it has been a successful one.

The last time I dj'd a festival, there were about 1000 or more people. I did it all day until the bands took the stage around 5. Not one of the songs I played was modern Nashville unless it had been recorded by a Texas artist. That is a cardinal sin at a Texas music festival unless you have acts like Merle Haggard, Charlie Daniels, DAC, or Hank Jr. playing.

The last time I dj'd at all, I was asked to play for the Labor Day crowd at Lake Alan Henry. I went by the same formula but because it was a lot of the Lubbock crowd, I tried to slip in a few songs like Dierks Bentley "5150" and a few others like "Farmer's Daughter", "A Long Line Of Losers", "Pretty Good At Drinking Beer". Great party songs right? Wrong! I didn't get halfway through any one of those songs before somebody was walking over to where I was and saying something like , "Turn that s___ OFF!" I mean it can get right down hostile when you try to play some of that stuff. Even when it should fit in just fine. Oh they're fine with Beer And Bones, Prop Me Up Against The Jukebox, Chatahoochee, T.R.O.U.B.L.E, Walk Softly On This Heart Of Mine and stuff right up to about 2000. But even with Long Line Of Losers, I remember being asked, "Do you have Kevin Fowler's version?" Even though, three songs earlier I had just played Kevin Fowler's "I Ain't Drinkin' Anymore".

In all of the country bars I have ever been into in Texas, I have never once heard Taylor Swift played. Now when she performs in concerts in Lubbock and stuff, I think she plays to a packed crowd.  The last country concert I saw was in 2013. An area rodeo brought in Tracy Lawrence. Personally, I love his music. I've met the guy twice and seen him 3 times including the night one of my best friends passed away. I showed up at the rodeo to see him and there was only maybe a little over a 100 people there. If Merle had played or Willie, you couldn't have found a parking spot within 3 miles of that place. 

So yeah, in the world of Nashville, I don't doubt that it is exactly what you say it is. But where I'm from, it is exactly the way I'm telling you it is. There's not one Nashville act scheduled to play in Wichita Falls this year. But Texas artists like Kevin Fowler are scheduled to play every Thursday and Friday. And usually Texas acts are playing simultaneously in two or three of the area bars at the very least. Whether it be in Lawton or Wichita Falls. Of course, Fort Worth Stockyards and that area is a different story. But Amarillo, Wichita Falls, Lawton, Abilene. Cities of 100-300,000 people. I don't know of one that I've heard of that is coming to play in any of those cities except Sam Riggs at the Midnight Rodeo in Amarillo in April. Clint Black and Travis Tritt are playing in Abilene soon too. Beyond that I haven't heard of any modern Nashville artists playing in those venues. Lubbock might be different. Usually they book a few acts each year. But not many.Taken as a whole, you have an area of about a million people the size of Tennessee with 100's and 100's of bars and concert venues that don't listen to Nashville enough to warrant investing money to bring in Nashville artists to perform. But if Kevin Fowler focused only on those area venues, he would stay booked to play packed houses 6 out of 7 nights of the week if he chose to do so and every venue is stumbling over each other to book him.

I know I don't have to ask Justin if he agrees with me either. He knows exactly what I'm talking about. And this is all coming from a guy who does like a lot of Nashville artists and loved Nashville when he visited there. And it isn't that Texans just love Texas music,  There are a lot of transplanted artists from places like Florida and other states who have found a home here. It's just that Texans as a whole hate Nashville and what they think it represents. Now, I'm not saying I think that way because I don't. But I'm real careful who I tell that I like certain Nashville music around because it is liable to get me into a world of trouble that I don't want to be in.  Just like admitting I'm a Democrat.

I didn't invent the game, I just play by the rules.
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John Westwood
#4147

Speaking of taking care of us, have you all read the message from Eddie at the top of the home page? Sounds like this may be the Ramps last year. We need to figure out a way to help these guys out. Both $$ and time.


phil g.
Yes Phil, the Ramp is having difficulties and Eddie is trying his best to save it. I don't know if this will be the last year or not. I know I'll try to stick with it as long as there is a reason to do so. As long as some of you are around. I have enjoyed my time meeting everyone and spending time on these and more subjects. All good things come to an end at some point, and it might be the time. But until that, I'll still be around. Let me know what you want to talk about.

MAB.

Y'all need to read carefully what Ed wrote.
Songramp , as you know it today , may..May  possibly, if things dont improve, may  wind up at the end of 2016 possiby .

HOWEVER .. there are plans afoot.. a planB  , if you  like,  to make sure folk are not left out in the cold without anywhere to go and to enable them to   keep the continuity  going  with  folk they have met and  connected with  on here.

Stand  by  for further announcements  and check out the  listing at    www.myevent.com/SavingSongRamp
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Phillip (phil g.) Grigg
#4148

Hey gang! We need to start talking about the 2016 Ramp Bash. There is a special thread for it right under "Forums". Check it out. Looks like it will be May 8-15 in Nashville. It would be great if we could get some of us here to attend. Last years bash was a lot of fun! Really cool GETTING OUT OF THE LIVING ROOM and meeting some of the ramp members. So, come on gang.


What ya say?


phil g.

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Phillip (phil g.) Grigg
#4149

John, near the end of Eddie's special message he talks about possibly doing some kind of "go fund me" thing. Then, over on the right side of the home page, there is a request for a small $5.00 donation. Are we trying to do both? Or should we wait for a special notice from Eddie?


phil g.

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