MAB Q&A

Justin, you have already painted yourself into a corner. When you say "mama looked for change to put food in OUR mouths", you, the singer, is somewhere between newborn and 13 years old. Step away from the story, and watch the movie as an adult, 19-24 years old. It is not you in the movie, but the movie reminds you of when you were younger, between 6 and 13 years old. So, third person is O.K., but you cannot put yourself  "in"  the story like you have. You can say, "I REMEMBER when mama WOULD look for change to put food in our mouths." Don't know what your chorus is? But v2 might talk about your (the singers) current situation, or some similar situation he/she went through after leaving home.

phil g.

Well, I'd say you have to really find out what your hook or most important thought is before you could go any further. Sounds like you are off to a good start.

The second verse could be about what you learned from that, what you do now and how you try to pass it along to your kids. Sounds like you are off on the right track.

MAB 

Justin,

I guess the first thing you have to do is provide the "Why?" element of the story. WHY is the reason you are writing this and WHY should most people be interested in it. It seems to me to be a "morality lesson" about not taking things for granted. A big thing about doing those kinds of songs is trying to find a different way to say something because what else can you say? The mom passes down a lesson, you are supposed to heed that lesson, and pass it on. I would just caution to not be too preachy in it. Might keep it on "things I've learned" sort of deal. 

MAB

sweeping out the pennies might be a good working title.

Verse 1:   scene of her with things going well

chorus 1:  sweeping out the pennies

verse 2:  Things are turning south

chorus2:  wish she hadn't swept out those pennies

bridge: family made it through and now she is ...

Chorus: ... sweeping up the pennies.

Yea, a little bit of a changing chorus -- but maybe you can word it so it isn't.

Back before times got rough, a penny wasn't good enough to  stoop and pick it up off the floor

So Mama swept them all out the back door. Remember, my advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Eddie R

Most of my  lyrics  come  from videos in my  head. I "See" the story . 

I have 4 parts of a 6 part western movie  story board written and have to get back  to the task. Been working on it  , on and off , for a few years now.

3  of the 4  also have sound

 And your post above  just  jogged my  memory

 Thanks Marc

John

Thanks John,

I don't know if I ever do much that benefits you. Thanks for letting me know.

It is a very good question, and sometimes comes down to subject matter. There are many, many things, I just simply won't write. In the case of what Justin is asking about, his song, I don't know if I would write that because I didn't have that type of experience. Therefore, I probabaly couldn't bring anything interesting to the dialogue on it.  I turn down a LOT of ideas due to just not being interesting to me. 

But one of the cool things about co-writing is using the other person's experiences to find a different track for the song idea.  That is the beauty of doing all this.

Interesting you talk about the Western theme in your mind's story board. I think back to the Willie Nelson "Red Headed Stranger' album, where he took a lot of Western theme songs and put them into a period piece concept album. I also have a guy I worked with once, who is a TOTAL COWBOY writer. He does a lot of cowboy themed songs. And even has a cowboy band, I believe. Have not seen him in a while, but will see him next month when I go back to Michigan.

That is the kind of person you look for when you have 'specialty" songs.

MAB 

I spend most of my time here, on this thread. But, I am still an NSAI member, and from time to time I logon over there to see what (if anything) is going on. It is very slow there. I check all the forums, including the peer-to-peer. The other day, a guy had posted a song called, "Sacrifice", that was about a mothers feelings about her son being killed in war. I commented that I applauded him for the courage it took to write that kind of song. He replied back "thanks, that he liked writing those kinds of songs", and ended with the comment, "Now if I could only write one that makes some money." I have politely invited him to come over here to the ramp for some education.

phil g.

Unfortunately that type of song is NEVER going to make money. You can't make money when you alienate half your audience which is what those types of songs do. Any "stand" taken in a song, no matter how benign, simply ends up ticking off half the audience members. If you don't believe me, go to Facebook and see when someone makes some kind of statement. "Support the troops" only ends up with people saying "you are a war loving jerk!!!" Or the "Westwood Baptist Church types" that will go "Yeah, they deserved it cause God hates Gay People and the artist was probably Gay!"

Gets so stupid, I just gave up on it.

MAB

Okay,  the Old Dog is in the beer again.  Not bad just a few to help celebrate my Army Buddy Mack's birthday, not that I need an excuse but it sounded pretty good.

I was wanting to respond to The Kid's delema about second verses, the other day; but I can't express things as well as The MAB.  I usually say the wrong things; like I did to my buddy KevMo about his last song on open mic.  For the record, I am impressed with how KevMo writes, plays his own instruments, and records his own songs.  I would apologize to him again but I fear I have blown any credibility I may have had with The KevMo.

Now back to my buddy The Kid and his song idea.  I worked on his song idea for about two hours and eight beers.  While I "Thank" him for getting me away from the TV for two hours,  I especially "Thank" him for giving me an excuse for drinking a few ice cold beers (not that I need an excuse).  I have a rather bad reputation for working on someone else's song ideas and lyrics; but I never mean any harm; nor want any credit.  I just find it more exciting to work on their idea's than come up with one on my own.

Their are a couple of lesson's behind my lyrics that MAB teaches and I'd like to bring to everyone's attention.  First of all, a co-writer can come up with a different idea and story line that may enhance the song or maybe not.  As a songwriter with an original idea, we may not like every change a co-writer may want to make; or bring into the write.

My own personal experience in co-writing is a co-writer I've worked with has never offered their opinion about changes that didn't result in changing things that made the song better.  This is a no-brainer when an experienced songwriter like the MAB or someone else above our writing abilities make a suggestion; but also a newer writer that may raise a question and make the more experienced writer give some thought to a line and try to make it better.

Now onto The Kid's story about his mother no-longer throwing out pennies.  I will start by saying I have met his parents and heard The Kids stories of how they started with nothing, worked two and three jobs to try and get ahead, and how his father built a couple of spec homes to get started.  He also shared how is dad bought his first commercial building at a closed bid auction; but bid so low he thought there was no way he would win the bid; so he didn't have to worry he didn't have the money to buy it in the first place.  His dad won the bid and had to scramble to get the financing; which he did and later sold that building for a profit.  But it took guts and his dad had a lot of that and perhaps some luck on his side.

His dad's luck came from taking chances, working hard, and having a good woman at his side.  They truly make a good team.  So I'm aware of the Kid's story and can relate to the lesson his mother taught him.  However, like everyone here, I considered his story being a life lesson and maybe to preachy as the MAB suggested.

I think The Kid was probably too close to the story and the lesson and those invisible 'blinders' set in.  He had trouble leaving his true life lesson (what is real) and coming up with a simple story that would make a good song being part fiction and the non-fiction that is keeping him form getting all tied up in his story.

So I took the liberty to make up a little movie trailor of my own.  Perhaps not so real but my attempt at telling a sweet love story that also includes the life lesson the Kid mentioned.  Now I'm not a great writer by any means; but I am a MAB student and I can attempt to set up a story and leave room for a great writer like the MAB to improve it.  

So I'll place my head on the songwriters chopping block and allow any comments to follow along.  The lesson is; any potential co-writer can give a different perspective and idea to a song.  Another co-writer can add to that and start a back and forth to make it better.  My man The MAB could take this idea and improve it and make it so much better.  I'm just trying to show The Kid how another songwriter may view his idea and make it a story about a life lesson and not get caught up in the life lesson so much he can't come up with a story.

OD

Chorus:  Tag:   Out 

Anyway, that is the Old Dog's video he see's; but check back in the morning.  I may sober up and have a totally different view of things.

OD

Looks like I've missed pages 1-42. i don't have time to read all the posts, but I read the last few pages up until page 43   Great advice from you MAB and John. I am really getting better at imagining my song writing as a movie scene. Great advice about watching movies and news pieces and thinking in this way too.  And great advice, MAB regarding the "Why?" element of the story. And WHY I am writing a song and WHY should most people be interested in it. New job starts tomorrow, business plus house-hunting is keeping me super busy! But I will pop back on here whenever I can. Thanks again all for the fab advice!  

IT all started off  reading about Clint Eastwood when he was a playing a hero of mine in Rawhide.

I wrote Sage brush heros  with Kip Marchetti.. and from there  the movie script  idea came.  (You might know Kip's  brother  Mark out in Goodletsville )

From SBH   I story boarded an outline  of a movie  plot  and did 2 more songs with Kip which moved the story along  . Now I have a conclusion to add sound  to  and then I want to write to the  beginning, telling how it all got started.  

I think maybe 2 more songs and the story  basics will be there  in song .

 That  might be a bit like 2 bites at the cherry  pie  but WTH

Then maybe some incidental  music .

I had the outlines , just the titles  , in sequence , pinned on the wall  for sometime until I rearranged the  room . I think Ill get back  to that  because it was a subliminal as well as an actual  memory  jogger

 John

 You would be surprised!  Much  of what you post  here  can be related to other businesses, especially or rather particularly , the people side of things.

I read a lot  of what  is posted here  and take from it what  I  need...

John

Not related to me ...

mab, john, phil, eddie, od,

thanks guys, i honestly feel like I got it.. and mab i feel i've learned enough from you that you'd know it would not be "preach" it would be a "value the small things" blah blah kind of song. but nontheless all you guys opinions and comments really have helped out especially just last night, i was in a town called Vidor, TX near the border of Louisiana cowriting with a fella, who's making his way around he's opened for Tyler Farr and a few other names when they visit the area, he gets radio play down here etc..great voice... our cowrite lasted five hours last night but the song was done in fifteen minutes! mixed and mingled among the song but the actually act of writing was done very quick and I think the song is fairly solid, all because I feel I took you guys approach, i really tried to MAKE myself create a movie, stared at my notebook and mentally said "OK KID where is this gonna go" and I wrote sooo much purer and faster, he brought a great idea for me to move on, he really was nailing the vocals and loving it, we had such a great time, he texted me this am and said his wife already said it's her new favorite song LOL an honor for me. we really clicked. it was a great cowrite and i had to travel 3 and a half hours to MAKE IT (NOW THAT'S GETTING OUT OF THE LIVING ROOM!!!!) HAHAHAHA whew...

i couldn't have written it like i did though without you guys advice, i really felt like I was opening a set of blueprints and about to build a building in my mind, as opposed to just grabbing a pen and starting off willy nilly writing waiting on the song to LEAD ME, INSTEAD I felt like I was leading the SONG for the first time. I was the construction worker building the building thanks for the advice.

OD, thanks for the compliments on my folks and that was a fine set of lines, i'd love to discuss off ramp and work on it, it's HIGHLY possible my blinders are on like you said and I'm too attached, I feel I could pull back, but as mab said it's better to have two heads than one, i think the impt. thing is i REALIZE my blinders are on...

LASTLY,

was nearly brought to tears when my cousin presented me this weekend with my pawpaws old acoustic fender guitar, it was a "cheap" fender but i don't care, his hands held it, and my son will one day get it. he literally just said "hey you want it" it clearly meant more to me than him. i'll post a couple pics just for fun... you guys have a good week and thanks for the advice!!!

one pic just a starter one i guess but i'll treasure it forever

pic 2

Me and Bretten Low in Vidor, TX Last night

Burning the midnight oil...

 If the sound of the fender is ok and  the beast itself is not warped or twisted  ,do yourself a favour and get some good quality strings on it..It  will get a new  life.

Personally  I  LOVE.....  did I say  LOVE ?......... Elixir Nanoweb Acoustic phosphor bronze strings.  I buy several packs at a time.

 They last  , dont get fillled with gunk  and  hold their tone  and tuning.

Marc  may not like them  cos they  dont make them out of 8 guage fencing wire but  for my moderate  playing style they are purrr  fect     

I am not paricularly  loquacious when  it comes to internet  corresponding cos a lot of  folk think I am too blunt   or dont get my sense of humour ( except  for  yout ztina .. unless she is just being polite    ) .And besides my spell checking  is atrocious.. I dont  do it .

I just  like to get to the point .

Marc,  Much of what  you say  here is , with the benefit of hindsight , commonsense , liberally  soused in  insider info  about how the business works and the basics of getting a song  down concisely , memorably  and into the right hands ..after  you have made all the connections and paid it forward..

What  I enjoyed about  our "tour/writing meetings was that  you added a new perspective, reinforced  some of what  I thought and gave me new  building blocks.... not to mention  some cool  introductions.

From that  point onward it has been up to me..

Sheesh  thats the longest  post  from me in a while!!

MAB,

I was talking with my cousin's husband the other night (related to Anthony Smith) and he told me Blake Sheldon is cutting one of Anthony's songs.  In fact the song will be the title of the CD,  can't remember the name of the song though.  I thought you would be happy for your buddy Anthony.

Also;  remember during the group tour back in 09,  we were coming out of the Blue Bar and MattH met a couple of guys from Oklahoma and was talking with them outside???    He mentioned them a couple of years ago because they were contestants on "The Voice".   They now have a song climbing the country charts and have a video on CMT.   I think Mattly wanted to get in touch with them after he got home; but they lived so far apart he knew it would probably never happen.  

The Old Dog was approached by a guy that deals in musical instruments to buy the remainder of my guitar and amp collection.  Kind of like the "American Pickers" show up at your door.   Over a dozen guitars (mostly electric and two high end accoustics) that are all in excellant condition,  and six amplifiers to include some solid state and a couple older tube amps.  I priced them low enough he could make some good money and I can get rid of them.  I even threw in my two bass guitars that will end my bass playing days when they are gone.  I knew I would never play in another band again, and the boys almost never get together for a jam so I'll retire from the bass (which I almost have anyway).

That will leave me with  five family heirlooms to pass down to my niece and nephew; along with another person that is dear to me.

Funny thing,  the spare bedroom, that hides all of this stuff, is at the end of my living room.  We walked by that Stand-up bass several times carrying out all of the instruments so he could get a good look at them.  At the end of the night and I had put a price on things,  I looked up and said "Damn" I forgot about that big ass bass.  He said he'd rather not fool with it because he deals mostly on the internet and it would be too hard to ship if he sold or traded it to someone out of the area.  So,  I will have to advertise it locally.

That will leave me with one accoustic guitar.  A 70's model Japanese Ventura that seems to have been their attempt to copy a Martin D-35; with the triangular split back.   It was given to me by my Brother Rick almost twenty years ago and has Brazilian Rosewood on the back and sides with a spruce top.   It plays well and sounds good enough for this old hack strummer.  It is not in excellant condition like my other guitars; but that is what I like about it.  I keep it on a stand, next to my couch, and don't worry about adding to a couple of scratches it already has (from previous owners before me and my Brother Rick); although I'm very careful with it and would never add anymore scratches to it.   Maybe I'll take it down to see The MAB someday and learn some of those perverted chords he plays........ I mean inverted chords.

The Old Dog is downsizing and that is a good thing.

OD

PS......... sorry for  that drunk post the other night.  I woke up the next morning hoping I had time to hit the "Delete" button; but it was too late.  I'm reminded of the old line of "If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all".   My saying is:
"If it weren't for drunk posts,  I'd have no posts at all".   Ha!!!   (sad but true).

Kid, sorry if I destroyed the meaning you were looking for in your song idea.  I looked at it the next day and thought "what is this".

I'm glad The MAB puts up with me.  

OD

OD:  It was a well wriiten story song.  Different enough that it definitely could be another song all by itself.   I thought you had done good!

OD: I agree with Kevin. Nothing wrong with that post at all, in fact I was impressed with the amount of time you took in writing lyrics from an idea that came from "the kid". I'd be pretty flattered if someone took off with one of my stanzas like that. I can also relate to waking up in the morning and thinking, "Damn! Get to the computer and hit delete!"  Ott

Thanks for the info John, and OD it was good talking to you today...

Since I know folks get touch feely with "where a song is posted" on here and I'm not sure, open mic, lyric lounge, whatever I always seems to get dressed down if i post in the wrong forum LOL!!! but here is the song i wrote Saturday night, click link i just made a youutube video on my channel instead, and the lyrics can be found in the description. remember "WORK IN PROGRESS" recorded on a cell phone outside and we'd literally just written a few words don't match the lyrics, but we were tired, this gets the point across, also he raises his singing in v2 where he shouldn't have... little stuff. I'd like any and all critiques, keeping it's still an infant stage right now...

private message me on ramp, or email justinparkertx@live.com or fb message me http://www.facebook.com/JustinParkerTX

and feedback would help greatly!!! Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=W1YV4ZBkTBE