Melissa  Yamello

Thanks for the welcome back! 


I certainly do understand why you would want to leave FB - and Tina IS so incredibly sweet, I can't imagine anyone having an issue with her at all! I so GET why you are leaving. I can't completely leave, because oddly enough, for me there is a very good side to it. As you know, I'm involved in my local Dream Factory chapter and the power of social media allows us to reach more people and get them involved. We grant dreams for chronically/critically ill kids and I have grown close to several of our 'dream' families. I love to see what they are up to and stay involved with them. FB CAN be used for good, it's just too bad that the bad outweighs the good most of the time.


MAB - Have you considered using Twitter for music related social media (if you aren't already)? The upside to Twitter is that the 140 character limit is short - just blurbs from people, and that's about all I can handle! It's not bogged down with as much drama for some reason. Just a thought. You could even post links pointing back to our conversations here, driving more traffic to this forum. 

  

Marc-Alan  Barnette

Mellissa,

Twitter is actually WORSE. Short burst of anger, with no real thought or reason, just all emotion. It is destroying more careers, and creating even more damage. All things that turn out badly start out very benign. I get NOT one tour client, person going to a show, interest in a song, from any of these sites. NOT ONE. It is all personal relationships. People are acting like COMPLETE idiots. 
I see NO BENEFIT whatsoever for me. I'm done.


MAB 


 


 


 

Melissa  Yamello

Ok, twas' just a thought Smile 


So anything good happening in Nashville in the fall? Trying to figure out when to plan my next trip!

Marc-Alan  Barnette

Always things going on. The Fall gets a little slow around Nov. A lot leave for the Frank Brown festival, and holiday season kicks in, end of year, business is winding down and most importantly, a lot of people find out they're being dropped from record or publishing deals, so at times it can be even more demorailizing than usual. But there are a lot of people here and always shows and hanging out stuff.

MAB 


 


 

Melissa  Yamello

Ok, just didn't know if there was anything special happening. I would probably rather come down when things aren't 'happening' - probably get more done. 

I have a question:


I know you have probably covered this a million times, but what are your thoughts on single song contracts? And how long is appropriate for the contract to last? I know your 'first deal is your worst deal' but for those of us who haven't had anything to compare it to, just wondering what the 'norm' is for a first deal?  

Marc-Alan  Barnette

Meh,

Yeah, most first deals are never that good, but kind of a "take it or leave it' kind of thing. You are really in no position to dictate any terms. In a perfect world publishers would appreciate everything we do and offer us whatever we want. I often read forums and people claiming to get "advance money' and all kinds of stuff. I am very skeptical unless it is the "They may have already won some valuable prizes" kind of things. Untested writers are not going to get anything, because they have not EARNED anything yet. That is why they are...untested. That's why there are "first deals."

Now, we have to look at the reality of publisher deals and also separate the "PDINO" and "real" or "legitimate" deals.
The "PDINO" are a lot of the "single song contracts", that are for one song, for an indiscriminate time, always slanted toward the publisher. they are kind of one step off the 'get off my porch" deal,but at least the entity is putting their effort where their mouth is. but most of them are very limited in what they include, seldom actual demos, just taking what you have already paid for in a demo, playing it for a few people here and there, seeing what happens, and of course, hoping you get enough activity going that you can get it cut, and they can benefit from your work.

This is not always a shady practice. Everyone has to be careful who they deal with and it is a way to get to know someone before getting deeper. It usually is for 5-8 years if not indefinately, because it is going to take a long time to get something to happen and they don't want to have spent time and effort and sometimes money only to have it taken away and placed with another publisher who benefits.


Most "reversion clauses" would be ideal around 3 years. That should be fair, but you know that nothing is fair. 

                                                                      LEGITIMATE PUBLISHERS


There are essentially THREE kinds of "REAL" publishing deals.


THE OPEN DOOR deal. This is where you develop a relationship with a publisher, and can routinely go in, have informal meetings, play some songs, go to social events, etc. "Real publishers' want to know who you are, and what your skills are, but also what kind of PERSON you are. If they are going to send you to other writers, possibly song pluggers, artists, producers, they have to know that YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON to send over. You reflect upon them. And their reputations, usually built over a couple of decades, are everything. One bad experience, and with some instances can ruin a career.


Single song deals might come out of this, but not in the manner that most people would think. There is not so much a "written contract' as much as a verbal contract. "Let me play this and see what kind of feedback I get." They are not going to tie themselves up to something that might or might not work either. They are not going to put money or time (which often IS money) too early. They might end up ponying for a demo if they really believe in it.


EXCLUSIVE REPRSENTATION.
This is where a publisher will believe in you enough to put their repuatation in you, although not always full committment. They will send you around, make appointments and actually treat you like one of their writers. They don't want you going anywhere else but might not be in a position to sign you for money. I have known publishers who actually went to the bank to get loans to sign a writer. I was one of those for six years with BEST BUILT SONGS.

FULL PUBLISHING DEAL.
These are the "FEW AND FAR BETWEEN" deals now. A "salary" or "Draw" per week or month, demo budget, access to song pluggers, writing appointments, writer's retreats, first shot with artists, etc. These have declined from 1460 in the mid 2000's to around 315 now. They have fallen off the map, because most publishing companies except for the big monsters, (Sony,Warner's, EMI, etc.) can't afford to pay $18,000-$25,000 a year, with a $10,000 demo budget, $10,000 expense and travel budget PER WRITER. And they have about 50-75 writers. Many of the "independent" companies have "CO-PUBLISHING DEALS' with these people. Taylor Swift's BIG MACHINE publishing company (actually about three companies in one) have a co-publishing company with SONY. They share in the expenses, front the money, for new writers in return for getting part of the publishing on someome like Taylor. Around $25 million a year on something like that. So it is a good investment.

Most actual publishing deals of any nature last about 12 to 18 months. They are renewed at the end of that contract in what is called "options." But the 'option" is the "option" of the company, not the writer. Although the writer can walk away. Taylor had a five year deal with Sony to begin with then opted out after two or three years, due to wanting to have her own company. They went with it and opted to be a partner with her. That was the belief that she was going to be a star.  There are very few of those now.

The average 'Real deal" goes down like this:


New writer comes to town, bounces around all the open mics and writer's nights. If they are really good, they start attracting attention. People start asking them to write, perform in rounds. Usually someone that comes around has one of the open door deals or possibly one of the full deals. That introduces the new writer to their publishing contacts.
There are several months of writing reguarly, getting higher level co-writers. they are usually invited to some industry parties, or guitar pulls, where they are under a microscope and people see what they are made of and if they are going to stick around. They are very much observed going through adversity. If they get knocked down, how fast do they get back up? 

Usually in that magic THREE year period, the publisher or possibly multiple publishers will start offering some "let me play this and see what happens." line. Might get a couple of single song things. Or even a group of songs,say three or four. There might be a demo or two or all three, involved, often after having written with their own writers.


A lot of these newer writers are forming groups like the PEACH PICKERS, with Dallis Davidson, who write every week at certain times. Often they become the stars for that publishing company. They get a lot of cuts, some hits, one or two even become artists. This is where Luke Bryan, Eric Church, and some others start out. Odten they don't get an "official deal" until some song is actually a hit and on the radio. I have attended number one  parties, where the hit writer is finally "welcomed officially into the publishing company family." Up until then, they are just a close friend.


It is ALL RELATIONSHIP driven and what separates it from the PDINO deals is it is ACTUAL SKIN IN THE GAME. They get to know each other as friends and collegues. That is a realtionship.

The limiting factor on all those other contracts, casual companies, film and television pitches, song libraries, etc. are that they are just a BUNCH of songs in various stages sitting around in a big vault. If you want a real visual for those, here it is:


Do you remember the movie RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK? The first "Indiana Jones' movie with Harrison Ford. Came out in 1981. In it, Indy finds the Lost Arc of the Covenant. The movie is great and one of my favorite ones. After so much trouble finding it, the government takes control over it, and talk about "They have top people on it!" studying it.


Then the camera cuts to the crate holding the arc, being pushed on a cart through this warehouse. As the camera pulls back, it reveals this HUGE WAREHOUSE that goes on and on and on, stacked to the ceiling with what seems to be MILLIONS of crates that all look alike. The Arc dissapears probably never to be seen again,. (Until Indy Four, where it shown the warehouse is AREA 51.) Kind of fun.


But that is my vision of all these film and television libraries and the people that contact you off the Internet telling you HOW much promise they see in your songs. Those end up being most SINGLE SONG DEALS.


The overall hope is that you will get lucky, they will have publishing on your luck. Win win. For them. 

Well, I know that is more than you wanted to know. But that is the deal as I see it.


MAB 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 


 

Ott Lukk

Melissa & MAB:  This past May, I had some real life experience in this area. I have submitted to various music sites over the years, some of which tell me they will place my tunes with the proper people. One of my co-writers received the following e-mail from a Nashville publisher this past May:  "Hi Andy , My name is --. I own a production and publishing business, ---. Your song, "Boys Be Wanting Me", was given to me by --. Cool track.   I'm in the process of signing writer/producers to do work for hire for film/TV on an ongoing basis. What I need are full songs in the pop/EDM vein (a la Selena Gomez, Britney Spears, Kaskade feat, Skyler Grey, JLo, etc). Stylistically and lyrically they need to have a high end entertainment, fashion, cutting edge club sound. General non-specific lyrics. House techno/grooves. Up to date sounds, etc. 


You'd be paid $475/song, upfront once a song was approved, and would keep 75% of writer's performance royalties. These would be work for hires so you wouldn't retain any rights to the songs but you'd get your upfront fee regardless of the tracks being placed and you'd get your back end indefinitely. I need a lot of songs at the moment so there's as much work as you'd like to do.  If this is something you're interested in I'd like to hear more of your catalogue (that's in this vein). Links to download in an email are best. And, I'd like to find a time to find a phone chat.  Let me know.  Best, --.


I was at first quite pleased about this. Then, I started thinking about it. Frankly, I paid more than $475 for the professional demo of this song. And I was supposed to give it away for $475 and some nebulous performance royalties in the future? I discussed this with Andy, my collaborator, and he said not only should I accept this deal, but that I should send him the other songs we have done the last couple of years in this genre. And he insisted that I be the one that responded to this guy, because I had written the tunes. I thought about it a couple of days, and then responded to this publisher, who, by the way, is based in Nashville. "Swallow your pride", I said to myself. "Maybe this tune is the one that opens a whole lot of other doors".


So, I replied, referencing both Andy's name and mine, not to mention the song title, in the subject line of the e-mail. Told him we were interested in working with him. I was optimistic, because Andy had checked this guy out, and the guy has been successful placing tracks. I actually have 5-6 tunes in this genre. And all I got was silence. No response, nothing. Andy said to "wait a few days, see what happens".  I did. Still waiting.


Anyway, here's a link to the YouTube lyric video. I think it's quite well done. I'll try to find somewhere else to place it.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiC_DG_iTro


Ott

Marc-Alan  Barnette

Ott,

This is pretty usual bait and switch. Many companies do this. And usually, before YOU get paid, YOU end up paying them. there are a lot of techincal terms they use to justify this. "Remixing" and "remastering" is a good one. usually no matter how good your demo is, it always needs some 'touch up" to get it to fit the format they are using. That is sometimes $250-$300 in fees. Then there are other 'processing" fees, maybe a couple hundred more. Then of course, they follow it up with letters about how "promising your material is" and they just need another $500 to put it on their "special CD compilation" going "directly to producers and film music directors."


There are a lot of them, and they slowly bleed you while you are waiting.most of the time you never hear from them again, but they are "always interested in" hearing more material from you. In which the whole process repeats.


Do they ever place anything? I've never heard of it but I am sure they get things in very small and limited cable and other productions which often don't pay actual money but "promise to give you exposure to MILLIONS of consumers."


The problems are basically that no one is PAYING ANYTHING FOR MUSIC ANYMORE. And all the lofty claims of these companies, no matter how well intentioned or convincing they are, can't change that. 


Good luck in placing what you do. I'm afraid that for the most part, there is just not anywhere to place it anymore.


MAB
 


 


 


 

Melissa  Yamello

Had to take my daughter and friends to the beach today - I know, boo hoo. I wanted to respond while I was there on the mobile site, but I dont see where there is a place to click through to the last page of the thread. I couldn't scroll through over 300 posts to get to it - so maybe I'm missing something or they are still working on things? 


MAB - Thank you so much for that info. I have never had to deal with any of this until now and I'm slowly trying to learn the ropes. I definitely realize I'm no position to negotiate terms, well at least not very much. I just don't want to even start a relationship with an individual or company that isn't legit. Defintely harder to navigate these waters and steer clear of the sharks when you don't live in Nashville. I will do my homework as best as I can and hopefully not completely screw up my first deal. Of course, it does help to have written the song in question with a writer that has already had a few single song contracts. Like I said in an earlier post, you learn from everyone you work with! 


Loved the Raiders of the Lost Ark reference because not only did I love that movie as a kid, but my son used to think he was Harrison Ford. I have so many pictures of him dressed up like him. Missing my boy right now, and that made me smile Wink But it is also a good one. You defintely have to have a realistic perspective and it's enormously helpful to have an idea of how these things are supposed to work. 


Ott - Good luck with your deal. I hope you hear back something back from him. But I would definitely continue to be cautious and do your homework. Smile


 

John Westwood


. I wanted to respond while I was there on the mobile site, but I dont see where there is a place to click through to the last page of the thread. I couldn't scroll through over 300 posts to get to it - so maybe I'm missing something or they are still working on things? 



 BY  mobile site  do you mean  you are  using  your  smart phone  via free wifi? 


I dont  use my  phone for web stuff. I use it as a phone and for txts only

Marc-Alan  Barnette

Melissa,

The thing to remember about single song or any deals, are "what do you have to lose?" Almost all of them are very basic and rarely ever go anywhere. It is one song. You will write more. They are just exploring how the relationship develops, more of an exploritory thing than anything else. Just feeling out how everyone feels about each other and seeing if you continue on writing and networking or sit around waiting on them to do something.


That is kind of a real part of the deal. If I am working with an artist or writer, and they kind of fade out into obscurity, never stay in touch, or don't do what I suggest they do, I pretty much write them off. If they continue along, send me updates, continue to write songs, do shows, move forward, I keep an interest in them. I don't have to tell you that it is much more of the former than the latter. Most people just plain quit. They get overwhelmed, realize it is not as easy as they thought and find out it is more about luck than anything. Oh yes, that it is ALSO VERY EXPENSIVE.

So if you get this relationship going, you need to keep up with it. Ask if you can send in other material. Ask for suggestions with co-writers. Keep the lines of communications going.


Single song deals are just the first step. Most never go to the second step.


MAB 


 


 


 

Melissa  Yamello


 


 BY  mobile site  do you mean  you are  using  your  smart phone  via free wifi? 


I dont  use my  phone for web stuff. I use it as a phone and for txts only



Actually, I meant to say the Songramp App...and yes on my iphone. I am on that more than the computer lately, so it would help to be able to get to the last post. 

Melissa  Yamello


Melissa,

The thing to remember about single song or any deals, are "what do you have to lose?" Almost all of them are very basic and rarely ever go anywhere. It is one song. You will write more. They are just exploring how the relationship develops, more of an exploritory thing than anything else. Just feeling out how everyone feels about each other and seeing if you continue on writing and networking or sit around waiting on them to do something.


That is kind of a real part of the deal. If I am working with an artist or writer, and they kind of fade out into obscurity, never stay in touch, or don't do what I suggest they do, I pretty much write them off. If they continue along, send me updates, continue to write songs, do shows, move forward, I keep an interest in them. I don't have to tell you that it is much more of the former than the latter. Most people just plain quit. They get overwhelmed, realize it is not as easy as they thought and find out it is more about luck than anything. Oh yes, that it is ALSO VERY EXPENSIVE.

So if you get this relationship going, you need to keep up with it. Ask if you can send in other material. Ask for suggestions with co-writers. Keep the lines of communications going.


Single song deals are just the first step. Most never go to the second step.


MAB 


 


Yes, what you said about the relationship is really what I'm trying to get at. If I ever get a royalty check for .39 on this song, I will be happy!! Of course we can all dream there will be more, but I just want to make sure that the first deal being presented isn't shady because I obviously do not want to waste time and energy on establishing/maintaining a relationship that wasn't worth it in the first place! So everything you said helped me understand more about how it's supposed to work, and that helps me figure out whether or not the people involved are legit. Thank you!! Smile



 

Peggy Burnham

Melissa,


I have had that same problem on my smart phone as well. I wish the pages would show up. The way I get around it is when I get a notification of a reply to the thread, I click on the link. That brings me here. Up above (on my phone) it shows a bell I click on that and it shows the comments made and by whom. I just click on the last one and it takes me to the last page.


Hope that helps


Peggy

John Westwood


 


Actually, I meant to say the Songramp App...and yes on my iphone. I am on that more than the computer lately, so it would help to be able to get to the last post. 



 


Ok  Ill copy  post  into bugs  and stuff   for the techs  to look at

Melissa  Yamello

Thank you, Peggy! I will try that next time. Smile

Melissa  Yamello


Thank you John! Appreciate it.


 


Ok  Ill copy  post  into bugs  and stuff   for the techs  to look at


John Westwood


Ok  Ill copy  post  into bugs  and stuff   for the techs  to look at



 


From Ed..


 " Good point - I will try to get that corrected in the next release of the app."

John Westwood


Melissa,


I have had that same problem on my smart phone as well. I wish the pages would show up. The way I get around it is when I get a notification of a reply to the thread, I click on the link. That brings me here. Up above (on my phone) it shows a bell I click on that and it shows the comments made and by whom. I just click on the last one and it takes me to the last page.


Hope that helps


Peggy



Which  phone are you  using ?


john

Simone Turner

Hi Marc-Alan, I found you! I think. I am not sure if where I am looking is correct as I'm a bit all over the place still using this site Tongue


I see that these pages are huge! I am struggling to honestly read these everyday with eveything going on. Is there a time of day when these messages are posted, or is it at random hours? Just trying to work out the best way for me to read them and contribute and network :D Also, how do I turn off notifications in my email? They are going nuts. lol!

Simone Turner

I think I'm onto the right track... Sort of. Are your posts just under Q&A Marc-Alan? SmileSmile

John Westwood


I think I'm onto the right track... Sort of. Are your posts just under Q&A Marc-Alan? SmileSmile



from your  homepage  go  to > forums>Music Industry Insider - Straight talk from industry insider Marc-Alan Barnette>


MAB Q&A 


or  simply  use this  link


 


https://www.songramp.net/forum/thread/47/mab-q-a/



j

John Westwood


 Just trying to work out the best way for me to read them and contribute and network :D Also, how do I turn off notifications in my email? They are going nuts. lol!



Go  to Account ( top rh side ) >Privacy settings> then  LH side  there is a menu bar that says Profile  Items Notifications Blocked users Invisible mode. >Go to Notifications > select options to  suit> save changes  button at the bottom of the page

Marc-Alan  Barnette

Hello Simone,

Finally made it! Great to have you. This is exactly where you are supposed to be.


Don;t let it intimidate you. First of all, we average about two pages a day. Sometimes more, or sometimes less, depending on what subjects every one wants to talk about. I most react to what other people start conversations on, but often I will put big posts on for regular reading.


It is my 'teaching" section, so there will be a lot of information on subjects. Most things that have to do with music don;t have really easy answers. I try to outline the topic of conversation, explain my opinion on it, and why I feel the way I do. I often have personal experiences with most situations songwriters and artists go through, or am working with people going through it so i usually can speak with some athourity on them.


I check in several times a day. Usually the mornings, to see what was posted over night. I check  in during the day and usually at the end of the day,. depending on my schedule (I travel to the Smokey Mountains tomorrow for a songwriters festival so won;t be on as much. You are welcome to converse as much as you would like.


Usually, check the 'last" page, and then back up three or four pages and read forward. Usually catches you up quickly. If you have a question, don;t worry about it. Go ahead and ask it and we will cover what you want to know.


John Westwood, is the guy I told you about from Melbourne, and will be a good contact for you there.


You will get to know everyone as they come around. Many read along but might not comment. Watch out for "OD, (The Old Dawg), who is a guy up in Ohio and kind of the biggest flirt around here. Pretty harmless.


Just read along, ask away and see where it goes. Everyone are friends here and you are welcome to be here.


Hope you will hang with us.


MAB 


 


 

Melissa  Yamello
Hi and Welcome, Simone! Looking forward to getting to know you. You will learn so much here! Glad there to see more females in the group. I'm sure OD will be glad too, lol.