MAB Q&A

Thanks MAB! You have covered my feelings about this song exactly. And, have pointed out the size of the "country" tent. That is one of the reasons I'm bringing up these songs. When I get evaluations back from NSAI that say generically "it sounds dated" or "the lyrics are dated", with no specific details to support those statements, I really start wandering what one needs to write so it will be a "country song". I do listen to a top 40 country station here, but I don't always catch the billboard top 40 show on the weekends, so the huge variety of songs I hear all week, I don't know or remember on some of them how "old" they are. To me "old" is songs back before 2004, but I guess as quickly as country is changing these days, a song that is 2 years old might be considered "old".

Thanks again for your review of those songs. I hope it helps all of us here to write better songs. Me, I'm listening to billboard top 20 songs, picking one I like, then try to write my own song, on a totattly different theme, that follows that chord progression and a very close similarity to the melody and rhythm. I'm almost done with one and I'm sending it in to NSAI for evaluation. We'll see how close I come to "current country".

Hey ya'll. Since I've started this, does anyone else have a current song they would like to discuss? like or dislike?

phil g.

Phil,

The "dated' critiques will often mean subject matter as much as any type of style. For instance. This week I had an artist I have worked with send me one of her newer songs. She is a beautiful singer songwriter, about mid thirties, great voice, but even she had a line in the bridge about "putting the ring on your finger."
Now, who talks about that any more? We are now in a lot of different TYPES of relationships. People live together, hook up, one night stands (we don't write that term anymore but it still happens) and still people get married, but they don't use those terms anymore.

Younger people tend to not think about marraige and artists always want to maintain an "illusion of avaialiblity" to their fans. So they are probably not going to talk about marraige.

A lot of time, musically will mean "dated." Think of the chord structure of "HE STOPPED LOVING HER TODAY." up against "DIRT." It is not that it has gotten MORE COMPLEX in the structure. It's actually gotten LESS complex. It is two chords in "DIRT" verses three in "Stopped Loving Her." But the groove, the attitude, the way the vocals lay down, are all modern, whereas "Stopped Loving Her" doesn't work as well in today's market.

I will tell you in my opinion what separates country from all other formats is LANGUAGE. In all the songs we outlined here, look at all of the LANGUAGE. It is all clear spoken conversational language.
"DIRT", while using the different rhyme scheme is VERY CONVERSATIONAL.
"AMERICAN KIDS"  while being a bit more metaphorical, with the song and background references, is CONVERSATIONAL.
"BURNING IT DOWN" is WAY TOO CONVERSATIONAL.

But that is what separates all the songs from other formats. The chord structure, music, stay out of the way of the lyrics, even though they might drive them, the lyrics still lead. The story is still there.

In my opinion, SING IT LIKE YOU WOULD SAY IT, and you'll stay in the ballgame.
Writing with YOUNGER people is ALSO A HUGE KEY.  
That is going to make a huge difference.

MAB 

                                                    I TOLD YOU SO PART 3, 987, 294.....

Due to the excessive insanane phone mess I had over the past three days, (Yes, I finally got all my data back, songs back and everything except my notes back, and they still might be around), I was not able to do as much listening to the Jason Aldeen song Burning it Down. I did do that by going to WIKIPEDIA, and found out that BURNING IT DOWN was written by, wait for it.......

RODNEY CLAWSON and CHRIS TOMPKINS AND THE GUYS FROM FLORIDA GEORGIA LINE!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnin'_It_Down

Imagine that!!!!!

The thing to take away is like that OLD JERRY REED SONG, "When ya hot ya hot!!!" 
Phil, if I didn't know better, I think you are having a man crush, bromance WITH THESE GUYS! You just seem to be in love with everything they do, even their "down and dirty baby making music!!!!" LOL!
 

Here is the deal. About five years ago, Craig Wiseman, who is probably the current biggest money maker in country, was getting toward the end of his huge run of endless hits. Fla. Ga Line, had been a duo playing clubs and making their way into Nashville. Craig, started producing demos on them and writing with them. That led them to their deal, much the same way I was involved in the beginning of Frankie Ballard. I keep telling you that EVERY HIT WRITER IS DEVELOPING THEIR OWN  STABLE OF YOUNG WRITER/ARTISTS. This is how cuts happen.
They became good friends, did retreats, got opening gigs, one thing leads to another.

They also were spending time writing with tons of writers along the way. I am sure (not totally but just how these things happen) that it is what led them to Rodney and Chris, who have been getting other cuts at the same time. 

When someone gets hot (Fla. Ga. Line CRUSIN')/Chris and Rodney, there is an endless parade of record companies, publishing companies, producers, all coming to their door asking "What else ya got? What are you guys NOT RECORDING? CAN WE HAVE THAT?

So multiple songs start bouncing all over the place including their own. This was probably one of many that were in the can, and all hit kind of at the same time. I do think it is kind of funny Phil hit on three songs randomly that were all written by two guys. 

Recently there have also been cuts by Hillary of Lady Antibellum on other artists like Casey Musgrave. So you see it across the board. Record companies look at "who is hot? What did their last record do? What can we get from them?

At the same time, all the up and coming writers and artists are trying to write songs with the people who are currently hot and who will be hot in the future. 

Sometimes it just all flows the right time with songs that just work in the public. Then there will come a time where a new group of people will be coming in as well and those guys will be "The old guys..."

As in everything, you have to look BEYOND the song. There are always going to be some really great songs and artists that simply don't work no matter how much money or who puts them out. There are always going to be a few gems that just catch fire even though they shouldn't have. And there are ALWAYS going to be songs and artists that lead us all to ask HOW THE HELL DID THAT EVEN GET ON THERE? 

There are a whole lot of reasons for it and the more you search, the more you find out BEHIND the scenes. The music business is a GIANT ICEBERG. Only a little part is on the surface. Much goes on behind the scenes that most people will never know about. Makes it really crazy when you are trying to think about "why does that rhyme work there when some evaluator just told me you couldn't do that?"

The bottom line is that it is NEVER just the song. IT ALL BEGINS WITH THE SONG, and that is true. But there are so many other things beyond that that you have to be aware of. And you can't just break those down easily.

OD, and Phil, maybe you should form your own duo at Frank Brown "OLD DOGS and TOO MUCH WINE" , start wearing thongs and cowboy boots and hats, and you guys can be the "NEXT BIG THING!' Phil can play poker at the Casinos and win you a record deal.  You could travel from casino to casino in Phil's RV and you guys could tear up Fla!!!!

Realistically, I always go back to the same things.:

Always look for younger artists to attempt to write and interact with. 
Write a LOT OF DIFFERENT TYPES OF SONGS WITH A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
Write with as many situations as you can.
Use different subject matter.
Listen to current songs. Do song study.
Present yourself well.
Go out and perform or have your songs performed regularly.
If you do RECORDINGS try to have an artist involved and make it part of their overall push for success.
Support other writers with your attention and however you can help.

Repeat.

If you do all these you will up the level of your odds and increase your opportunities.

MAB 

Re: American Kids.

That's an interesting little tune.   If you recorded verse 1 and sent it in, you would get that "dated" comment.  In fact the phrasing that Kenny uses is quite similar to the phrasing you use in just about all your tunes, so that is in your wheelhouse.  (as a side note, I think you need to work on your phrasing delivery to be more varied from song to song).   Of course the instrumentation is very "americana" and now so that offsets it a bit.  After the first verse, though, it definitely moves more into the more modern sound with a very catchy chorus and after that it stays quite "alive" and fun.  I wasn't a big, big fan of Kenny's "Buffet" era, but I saw him on some TV concert show a few years back and came away quite impressed with his overall sound and persona.

MAB, "Dirt" and "American Kids" are the two I liked. NOT really crazy about "Burnin It Down". For a song that I guess is supposed to be upbeat, fun, and positive, something about that (organ?) and the drum beat don't seem to go together and between the two make it sound like a downer [to me]. But the reason I like the first two are the really alive, clever lyrics. And those really stand out because, like you said, the melodies are really simple. The other thing I would like to point out is, in addition to the melodies really supporting the lyric and story, the placement of certain important, rhyming words within the meter really drives the story home. That is also true with most pro written songs you hear on the radio. A lot of more ameturish SONGS (meaning lyric, rhythm and melody) don't marry the lyrics to the music very well. An area I really struggle with. It is one thing to write a lyric, even a clever one, but a totally different challenge to get it to fit correctly into the correct rhythm and melody for those lyrics and story.

Kevin, I'm not sure what your response to American Kids is, but it sounds like you're talking to someone here on the ramp? You see, you did exactly what the evaluator did. You said v1 of that song is "dated". Why? What sticks out as dated to you? Yes it talks about things that probably happened in the 60's-70's, but the way it is worded is very up-to-date. INCLUDING, "mommy and daddy", because of the context in which it is used. Remember, the singer is talking about what his parrents did. In that context, when he was a kid learning why they were living there, he probably did call his parrents mommy and daddy. Actually, my mom wanted to be called mother, but most kids called there mom, mom.

phil g.

Oops -- I was talking to you phil (ha, ha).   It is dated because of the delivery style (in my opinion) -- if it was just a guitar/vocal demo (but I should probably go back and listen again).     Maybe "dated" is the wrong word, though.  On the other hand, he delivery is quite similar to yours on a bunch of your songs -- so you have something going for you there.  Just need to break out of that  a bit.  Now I don't think having a section or two on the "dated" side is bad.  In this case, the musical treatment adds a more americana, contemprary sound to it.

Kevin, I guess you're talking about Kenney Chesney's, "American Kids"? The delivery in the verses is country rapid fire, which is the new delivery style in country these days. I take it you don't listen to country? Or at least not to current country? The rhythm in both the verses and chorus are a pop style. Also the new country feel. Even the chorus melody is lifted but simple, and the second half of the chorus goes back to almost that rapid fire delivery. This is all current country.

phil g.

I was talking about the delivery of the 1st verse only.  Modern country is rooted in the 70's rock and roll / pop era and this one has got the americana instrumentation working for it.  modern/shmodern, the semi-rapid fire delivery doesn't make it modern.  But now that you are expert on this stuff, I'll bow out.

Well here's you one even better. Thomas Rhett has his 1977 DISCO Bee Gee's Groove happening. This really makes me laugh my butt off!!!!

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwEH3jXaSs0

MAB,

I have to tell you I really liked that song.  Truth is; I even liked the Jason Aldeen song and I'm not much of an Aldeen fan.

This entire lesson the Philboy started, makes me realize how much I am "melody driven" more than "lyricly driven" .

I think we have discussed the importance of both melody and lyrics in the past; but this really reinforces how my musical tastes are mostly influenced by melodies more than lyrics. I'm guessing for me, a slower ballad may appeal to me more for the lyrics (like the Dirt song) than the other songs that have a peppier, faster pace melody.  

I really liked the catchy melody of the "American Kid" song, and even the more Pop/Rock Jason Aldeen song.  This Thomas Rhett song has a fun melody (you're right, I hear that disco era coming through) that strikes some familiar sounds I used to enjoy and apparently still do.  I like them all.

My God, what happened to that old George Jones lovin OD.  Hell, I still like that stuff to.  Is there no end to this madness???

OD

Then MAB, there's Luke Bryan's "Roller Coaster". To me has an almost 90's country music sound. It's kinda like you said the other day about the size of the country music tent. So, now maybe you understand when an evaluator tells me my songs "sound dated" without any specifics, I just go, "Huh?" LOL It's all good though. Some folks here in Florida like some of my tunes.And it is very rewarding when they come up and tell you, "I really liked that song about ....". After all, isn't that why we do what we do?

phil g.

BTW, on a technical note. If anyone is wandering how we're getting these web page links in the middle of our text, here's how. When you are creating your post, pick out a word or phrase and highlight it. As soon as you do, the two little buttons in the menu bar to the left of "Font Family" light up. The left of those two allows you to "edit/insert link". Click on that button and a little dialog box is displayed. You simply open the page you want to link to in a new IE tab and copy that pages web address into the  "Link URL" text box and set the "Target" from the drop down list. I usually set that to "Open in new window".

OD, talking about catchy melody, as opposed to lyrics, the new Blake Shelton song, "Neon Light" grove and melody gets me moving. It starts out sounding almost bluegrass with that banjo but quicly turns into a rockin little tune. The lyrics are pretty cool too. Especially the second verse.

phil g.

With all this talk about how big this "country tent" is, I feel it my be time to dust off my MAB inspired "Country is in the Ear of the Beholder" tune -- ha, ha!

There is a little bit of the "This is not your Grandpaw's country' going on. Each generation rebels against what was just there. You have to keep in mind that what is going on right  now are not just the artists and writers. It is the producers, the musicians, the label exectutives, managers, etc. Those people are coming over from rock and pop. So the sounds,production, layers, instrumentation, etc. are going to be from that.

And again, we are getting more URBAN (city) oriented in the lyrics, the messages, as well as the music. The audience as well. They live more in the cities and are more likely to go to a dance club than anything else.

Here is the real eye opener for you guys. you should all visit a local country dance club on a Friday or Saturday night. Listen to the music programming. And watch the dance floor. There will be the usual top 20 country artists. Then they will kick into AC/DC's HIGHWAY TO HELL. Then there will be some pop/rock stuff, something from the 80's and then back to the newer stuff. A "belly rubber' dance song about every seventh or eigth song. But what strikes me as interesting as how varied the music is.

Od, the "George Jones"/Johnny Cash" phenomenon is still there.They get played a lot too. But if you think about if George was just starting out now, I don't think his music would work. It would be the hated "D" word, "DATED."

Phil, it is hard for me to describe what makes something sound DATED without hearing it.  A lot of it has to do with the performance. As Kevin noted, some of the Chesney, might come off Americana with another artist,but with him it works. If Kevin did the same thing it might come off like Mr.Rodgers and Captain Kangaroo doing a Disco version of a Hopalong Cassidy song. (Sorry, just wanted to see how many weird references I could get in one sentence.) But it is very much in the person bringing it.

Strange business. My suggestion is not to play.

M 

On a good day!

Loved it Kevin!! Didn't know you had that kind of good ol' country rock music in you!! LOL! Really cool tune. AND it is, in the words of Harlan Howard, "Three chords and the truth". You gotta bring that one to Frank Brown. They'll love it! BTW, you have a mean violin too! Awesome job there!

OD, for those of us who fell in love with country in the 6o's - early 80's, you'll NEVER replace George Jones, Johny Cash, Mearl Hargard, Wilie Nelson, even David Allen Coe, Jessie Colter, Waylon Jennings, Statler Brothers, Oak Ridge Boys, Roy Orbison, Roy Clark, Buck Owens. And the list goes on and on. EVEN Alabama, who I credit with introducing rock and roll into country. I think MAB has a different opinion here.

phil g.

Woah woah woah!!! There Phil!!!

WHAT DIFFERENT OPINION? I am right with you on every one of those. I am missing like Hell all of those. Music meant more then, the singers sounded different, all identifiable,all legendary.

Just because I am breaking down these current songs and giving some opinions on them, doesn't mean that I am totally in awe of any of them. I think they are all interesting, but far from what I would consider classic writing or artists. In a  lot of ways it is a little like contests, the LEAST SUCKY OF THE TOTAL SUCKINESS. I don't mean it quite like that, but I am not totally impressed with a lot of what is out there.

In what we have been talking about it beats the HELL out of ten million Bro country songs!  I like things like Dirt and American Kids for their different subject matter, and characters. 

But like you, that is much more suited to my style and what I listen to by preference.

I'm not that much younger than you guys are. I'm an old fart too. I just write with a bunch of younger people, so I have to think like they do as much as I can.

MAB 

MAB, we had a conversation once where I said that Alabama introduced the rock sound into country. You didn't exactly dissagree with that, but you said Garth Brooks started the rock "light show" in country. That's all I was refering to. [To me, as I recall it, (AND BTW, I am almost old enough to be your father LOL)] country sound changed when Alabama became popular. Up till then, as I recall it (but memory is the second thing go LOL), groups like Statler Brothers and Oak Ridge Boys didn't use loud drums and those rock lead guitar riffs. Nor did any of the other country artists at the time. AS I RECALL IT LOL. Could be totally off here.

phil g.

KevMo,

I love how you include one of your old songs into a discussion.  I think you once said in the past "you shamefully" include a link to one of your songs.  Not true but I love that you said that.  Ha!!!

I'm not going to go into a full critique (because I know this is an older song); but I will point out a few things that I'm sure you have considered after all this time working with the MAB.

For one thing; by changing the lyrics so much in the three different choruses, they begin to sound more like a verse than a chorus.

Another thing,  the last line in your choruses.  I'm not going to pick on you for your hook at all.   However,  you know I have gotten on you about being too wordy which has led you to trying to rapid "spit fire" a line here and there.  In this particular song, the last line would be much easier to sing if you dropped the "Yea" from the beginning of the line.

That is all I'll say about that.

OD

Hey,  may the Old Dog make an analogy that I think fits a lot of us older songwriters???

First let me go back to one of my favorite MAB stories about a much older gentleman at one of MAB's workshops years ago.
The old guy came up to the MAB; almost unwilling to show him the lyrics because he was afraid of someone stealing his song
and warned The MAB it had been copywritten.

The song title was "My Old Jelop, With A Raggy Top".   The MAB knew,  from just looking at this older fellow,  the song would be dated and the old guy had no reason to worry about anyone stealing his song.

This leads me to my analogy, and I don't want to hurt anyone's feeling here.

I know The MAB felt the same thing when the Old Dog came down to visit him for my first Tour.  I can only guess he felt the same way when the Philboy and KevMo came down for their first Tour, many others as well but I'll use us for this analogy.

Us older songwriters are like the classic cars we grew up with.  We have a look and appearance of that classic older style everyone can spot a mile away.  We may not recognize it because we think our design (or sound)  is still relevant.  However, everyone else can tell the difference between a classic 65 Mustang; compared to a newer look (or sound) of the 2014 Mustang.  We don't have to turn on our key, start ourselves up; or drive onto the stage for everyone to know the difference.

Some of us may try to reinvent ourselves; almost restore ourselves, in order to keep up with the younger models that are popular today with the current market.  Some may; but most of us will be happy just to make our engines purr and be happy to take in a parade once in awhile, to find an audience that still enjoys what we represent.

Then there are those few; like The MAB, Jimbeau, Richard Leigh, Ralph Murphy, Walt Altridge, and others that are still driving on their original old chasis; but have been taken care of and been polished by the market, still in showroom condition and able to keep up with the best of them.

Anyway, that is my analogy.  The Old Dog is off to hide in the doghouse until this post blows over.

OD

Kid, where are you???   Hey, what happened to OD's favorite Girlfriend Miss Meliss???
Also; where is Gerald???    I hope the Old Dog didn't chase him away too.

It's official - we've become our parents, reminiscing about the good 'ole days when lyrics had substance & great melodies, lol! No backlash for my comment please! It's called 'cycles of life' -- each generation feeling the same about their fav music of their time. Nothing new about it. OD, I don't even pick out Hubby's underwear, so as flattered as I am, you're on your own on that, and please don't SHOW me your choice (in pics or otherwise

xoxox!!!

I

P.S. Yes, I DID read everyone's recent threads on this topic, and DO share several opinions.... Just a tongue-in-cheek footnote before I get crucified by you, my friends, and especially MAB

I'll start out with what I hope is an innocuous question. Is anybody besides me getting real, real tired of the use of "girl"? I suppose it beats "hey you", or "bimbo", and fits into "shake your booty" songs, but it's starting to grate on me as much as "truck".  Or am I just to old to appreciate its use?  Ott

 I have no issue with "girl"   but I do have  a real  issue with the gratuitous use of  "mate" here in Australia . I mean mate , look at what is happening  ,mate around the world, mate. It really does  upset me  mate  .

How about you mate?

 Over use  of anything is a PITA.

OD, you didn't scare me away. I think you are harmless as the day is long. I've had many a chuckle while reading your posts. I just spent a few days away for work and the weekend was all about the community. Celebrating local culture, 1 of 240 communities across the province. A lot of work, but incredibly rewarding to see the smiles on the faces of children enjoying the activities we put on for them.

I appreciate and value the comments on my previous posts. I didn’t want to come across as wanting to be the most popular kid in the playground, it wasn’t my intention at all. Just a moment of frustration. I’m over it....

MAB, will you elaborate on your comment   “Do song study.”? What am I looking for?