Marc-Alan  Barnette
Dan,

Sorry I misspelled your name. A lot of time, I glance over this stuff and try to respond before it gets too far away. Simple mistake. Good to hear from you. You should try to catch up with Phil while you are in that area, even if it means going a little out of your way to have a meal or drink with him. Phil is another one I have enjoyed getting to know over the years. And another one that I see those threads of improvement each time I see him. 

The "Villages" probably does have some form of talent show or writers thing you could check out. There are a LOT of people who write and perform songs, many who have done it all their lives, so it might be a nice little group to hang out with. Be worth checking out. I have seen you perform and you most definately should get out there and do a few songs here and there. Might make some really good relationships. 

Be careful traveling. Check in from time to time. Good to hear from you.

MAB
Phillip (phil g.) Grigg

MAB, thanks for mentioning Chris Stapleton. I guess I haven't checked the billboard top 25 in a while. Chris has 2 songs still in the top 25; "Tennessee Whiskey", and "Nobody To Blame". Those are two really great songs. AND, they stand out from the rest of the current "country" songs. Again, radio sure is regional! I don't think I've heard either one of those more than once or twice, if at all, on the country station I listen to here.


Now, if I may, I have a question about some of those "big dog" writers you mentioned. Those guys didn't just drive into town and go to work for the big name producers, publishers, artists. So, pick one writer, and if you can, give us a history lesson oh how he/she "made it" to the big times. How did they get to meet someone already on the inside? Were they trying to be an artist, or just a writer? Did they do writer's nights, like Debbie's, Donnie's, or Lee's?


Really love your history stories!


phil g.

Marc-Alan  Barnette
Phil,

I don't have a lot of time right now but will try to give you a more complete description in a minute. May have to wait to later. I have an appointment with a new female artist in town and have to run a couple errands first. It is interesting that one of the songs you mention, NOBODY TO BLAME, is essentially pretty much almost the same as my song, "CAN'T BLAME NOBODY BUT ME" which was always my "barn burner" ending for nearly my first 18 years in town. Funny how things work out.

I can tell you that almost EVERY SINGLE writer without execption go through the "writers nights/open mic" thing first. The ones that really stand out, usually advance pretty quickly. In other words, from doing one or two songs on an open mic, they attract people who are ahead of them in line, who put them into rounds, get them into shows, get bumped up in the rotation very quickly. Some create their own pathway and just bulldoze their way in, due to talent and aggression. Many were "big fish in little ponds" such as myself, before they got here, and so they hit the ground running. But again, in almost all cases, that "ten year town' will rear it's head more often than not.

One, in particular, BIG KENNY, from BIG AND RICH, is one I can kind of spout out quickly because I remember his first writers night in town, because he came over to me afterward. He was from Virginia. His real name is Kenny Alphen. (still got his first business card too, LOL!). He was your atypical, Surfer Dude, shoulder length blonde hair, really good body, and about 26 years old. Every girl's summer dream. 
He had had bands all through Virginia and played a lot in Virginia Beach, I believe. Some of these details are fuzzy after around 20 years so I'll be glad to stand corrected on some of them.

He started doing bands pretty quickly. In those days the writers nights were different than now. There were some open mics, but most were invited deals. There would usually be about 12 people, all playing 4-5 songs in a row on their own. There were really no "rounds". That was started by Don Schiltz, Fred Knoblock, Tom Schyler and Paul Overstreet at the Bluebird around 1991 or 2. 

So Kenny was doing the regular writers nights. Like today, there were a few regulars. Bogeys (which moved to three different locations), The Courtyard Cafe' (Where Phil Vassar got his start), the BOARDWALK, BELL COVE CLUB, the basement, and dozens of others that would pop up.go for a year or so then dissapear. And there was the "top of the heap" the  Bluebird, Douglas Corner, Exit Inn, 12th and Porter and about 5 or six more that were the "showcase clubs" that you worked up to. We all would do fairly regular shows there. 

Just like today, there would be the same people over and over and you all grew great friendships out of that. There would be the guitar pulls, the outdoor cookouts, the pot luck dinners, getting together at churches, etc. and of course, the optinional pontoon boat (PONTOON!!!) whenever someone's roommate owned or had access to one. We tended to sneak around onto other people's property more than anything else. 

Kenny (still was not known as "BIG KENNY" yet although at 6' 2 or 3" "Big" was a pretty appropriate term.

Gonna have to hold off on this story for a bit. Will be back for part II later.
Marc-Alan  Barnette
Well, in the "When it rains it pours" department, while in the middle of my co-write with a new delightful artist, Kendal Conrad today, I got a call from my friend Richard Trest. Richard runs the cajun resturant music venue, RICHARDS, and is a great New Orleans-style hangout in town. He called me because he had a cancellation in his round at the BLUEBIRD tonight, so I will be playing one of my two shows this year at the Bird tonight. My favorite place to play and always the hottest ticket in town. We'll have a ton of out of towners coming in to see if it is like on television, so I'll  do my best to uphold the tradition.

So I'll have to hold off on the story either for later tonight or tomorrow. Stay tuned.

MAB
Marc-Alan  Barnette
Well, that was cool. There is nothing like the Bluebird. I used to play there all the time, then it got SO POPULAR, that nobody can get in very much. I play a couple of times a year, usually when I am invited like last night. It is like any one's home town, if there is a place that gets so touristy and so overcrowded, you just get tired of trying. Last night was a really good night, as usual pretty full. Although the crowd was not overflow, with a line outside the door. But it was 95% full.

Interestingly enough, the show after ours, was Vince Gill, and Amy Grant. It was not full either. So it is mostly the new year and the cold. The town is kind of lethargic right now and coming out of a coma of the holidays. Today I'll do a couple of shows, one in the afternoon, at BOBBY'S IDLE HOUR, which is the last remaining true "Honky Tonk" on  Music Row. Then tonight, I am the feature on the COMMODORE. So life goes on.

Okay, I'll get back to Phil's question about the pathway of a major label writer/artist. I realize some of you might not find this interesting, but I am trying to be instructive. Most of what I talk about have some very simple principals which can be applied in your own lives and music, namely, that if you are looking for "CUTS", build teams, find your own group of people to intereact with and plug into neighborhoods, where you can, be it on the Internet, or in your local communities. This same thing can be done if you are just looking to play a few writers nights or open mics, trying to write your own songs for your own projects, whatever. Opening yourself to others will help build your own craft and discipline. 

If you are not interested, just scroll on or if you want to talk about something else, just put it up and I'll try to direct comments to what you want to talk about.

MAB
Marc-Alan  Barnette
                                                  BIG KENNY, JOHN RICH, AND THE MUSIC MAFIAPart II

Phil, in your question about "How did they meet someone on the inside?" It comes through a lot of sources. First of all you have to understand that in this town, like most businesses, we are all "Six Degrees of Separation." Kind of all Kevin Bacon, in some ways. (There is a game, where you can take the actor Kevin Bacon, and extrapolate where he has been involved with almost every actor in Hollywood. "Kevin Bacon was in the movie "Footloose", where he worked with Elizabeth Shue, who was in such and such movie with Meryl Streep, who acted in such and such movie with Jack Nicholson..." and on and on and on..)

It is sort of like that here with songwriters and artists. Nashville is known as a "Circle of friends" and one circle intersects with another circle. As people negotiates open mics, to writers nights, to "special events" to being known by publishers, record labels, etc. And a career is born.

"BIG KENNY" Alphen, is a friend of mine who  went on to be a part of the "MUSIC MAFIA" with his group, "BIG AND RICH" who have had multiple platinum records, hit songs and tours. I met Kenny on one of his first nights in town and was around that group of people a good deal for a while. They are just one of the millions of stories in this town, many others are doing the exact same things, get to various levels but most just don't succeed like they did. But I digress.

Kenny, myself and many others were doing writers nights around town. These were mostly invited shows, where you would go meet the hosts, get a chance to play, prove yourself and be put into a standard rotation on ongoing writers nights. In my first four years there was an every Monday night show at the THIRD COAST, which was a resturant bar, where the modern day BOUNDRY is. I met Kenny about 8 years into town, around 1996. By that time, the Third Coast was still going but not on a regular night. So there were other places like BOGEY'S, which was one of four or five regular places we all gathered.

Kenny, who had been in bands in Virginia, was playing with other musicians he met and ran his own night. He would have a "house band" of five or six players, that would invite other writer/artists to come sit in. His night usually was on Tues. nights, WHILE he was playing the writers nights with the rest of us. I met him on a writers night when he came over to me after one of my sets. He was very excited saying "I WANT YOUR VOICE" and I, of course, said "I WANT TO LOOK LIKE YOU!!!!" You see, Kenny was really good looking and always had a TON OF WOMEN around him. And it just so happened that at the time I was getting divorced and actually the day after I met him, he and his roommate,  came to help me move out of my wife's house.

I moved into an apartment right across the street from his and we hung out all the time. Playing vollyball, being at the pool and of course, A MILLION GUITAR PULL PICKING PARTIES. This is the thing that "outsiders" have a problem understanding. The people who become the "big dog writers" have spent years building relationships. They extend far beyond songs and performing. WE are each other's support groups and therapists. We all go through break ups, other love lives, and of course, a good deal of food and drink. We all would host parties in our apartments, out on pontoon boats, in farmer's fields, on the lake, doing Christmas parties (we even have "orphan" Christmas parties here, where people who are far away from home can go to someone else's house for Christmas. We are extended families.

This is where those writing relationships come from. And we all play in each other's shows. As Kenny and many others of our cadre advanced into open door publishing appointments, writing with higher level and more connected writers, the reputations grow. 

One of the more interesting events that happened on Thus, nights (his show being on Tuesdays) was called "THE LODGE." This was a big warehouse that was essentially owned by some rich guy that a friend of a friend knew. This friend was staying in a small apartment in this warehouse, that was a "toy barn" for the rich guy's boats, jet skis, motorcycles, collector cars. In another corner of this was a bar set up, some couches, and a PA. On Thursday nights, about 100 of us would gather, pay $5. and there would be a keg of beer. We would drink and play. All night. I mean it would never get started till 10:00 PM, and would go till daylight. It was kind of open, with people just getting up either in groups with people they played and wrote with.

In this group of people who socialized ALL THE TIME, there were people like:
Billy Austin writer of the Homewreckers "Leave the Pieces".
David Vincent Williams, writer of  "I'm Moving On" and "Just Got Started Loving You"
David Leigh, writer of "Letters from from Home"
Tony Lane, writer of Speed, and dozens of George Strait Hits
The Kinleys Sony recording artists
David "Doc" Abbot future video director and documetaries for National Geographic
Four or five future publishers
Various musicians that were at that time and future times being involved with Gretchen Wilson, Hank Williams Jr. and BIG AND RICH.

This is the key. The Lodge is kind of where it all came together. A big drunken party. But hundreds of future cuts were heard there, dozens of songs that would go on to be HUGE hits, and writing relationships. 
It was at one of these that a singer named John Rich showed up. I wasn't there that night.

Over time, John and Kenny began to link up. They wrote together, did other shows. That "Lodge show" morphed into something called the "Music Mafia" and that was the "Pivot point" for their ultimate success. But had it not been for all those other shows, parties, private get together's, the "Mafia" probably would have never existed.

During the day, they were all trying to get publishing deals and writing with different people. They all worked side jobs, I think Kenny had a delivery job or something. At night they wrote, played other shows. Then they all would have a deal for a while, get some cuts that probably didn't go anywhere, and go up and down. John, was the lead singer for a group called "Lonestar" who got a deal, and he got fired or quit, (depending who you talk to). 

The "Music Mafia" show, became THE Tuesday night show to go to. It was always five stools up front, with various musicians playing behind the main singers. The stools would be taken by people like Kenny and John, James Otto, Gretchen Wilson, (who was a bartender at Bourbon street Blues and Boogie Bar John became involved with.)

John, was producing demos on each of these artists on songs they wrote together. 

Every Tuesday, first at a place called THE PUB OF LOVE, which was the size of a closet, the second at MERCY lounge, AND ALWAYS STANDING ROOM ONLY. They called themselves "The MUSIC MAFIA, because they were rebels. And did whatever kind of music they wanted. Rock, rap, country, blues, covers, whatever they wanted. There would always be special guests that came in. I was invited and tried one time but couldn't get near the stage because it was so crowded. So I missed my "MAFIA MEMBERSHIP."

Basically there were ALWAYS a LOT OF WOMEN around all these groups of people. So it was where all the GUYS went. Including Record company people, who could bring their out of town guests, (RADIO PROGRAMMERS, who they wanted to play their records) and they could get them....well..... entertained, on any given time.

Among the members of some of these nights were executives from NASCAR who decided to put the whole thing on the road, playing NASCAR events on weekends. NASCAR, who run races on Sunday's usually have HUGE THREE DAY TAILGATE PARTIES with hundreds of thousands of people. This is what the entire Mafia guys did. So they were building enormous FAN BASE at the same time, making  a lot of money and building their own writing and recording.

When GRETCHEN took off with "REDNECK WOMAN" (A song written with and produced by JOHN RICH,) the next of the crew was BIG AND RICH with SAVE A HORSE RIDE A COWBOY. This was a huge phenomenon, and actually throwback to the days of the OUTLAWS, (Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, Tompall Glaser, and Jesse Colter) back in the 70's. You might remember songs like GOOD HEARTED WOMAN, MAMA'S DON'T LET YOUR BABIES GROW UP TO BE COWBOYS, and others from the 70's and 80's. There are always NASHVILLE REBELS, and that was one of those times. Before that was HANK WILLIAMS SENIOR. Today it is ERIC CHURCH, CHRIST STAPELTON, etc. the people that break the mold and then everyone tries to copy.

Big and Rich and the entire menagere' caught fire in the music critics, audiences and THEN RADIO. They had some big tours, sold a ton of merchandise, more hit records. Then of course, they all kind of burned out, split up, lost record deals, but still had high profile. John went on "The DONALD TRUMP reality "APPRENTICE" television show and all of them continue to pop up in POP CULTURE. I see them on VHI shows all the time.

So that, Phil, is pretty much how it always happens. The people get on the "inside" as the people around them BECOME the insiders. One thing leads to another. It is never one song or one show. There might be one that is a pivot point, but there are dozens and hundreds of people, places and things, involved. For every one that "make it" there are hundreds of people who are on the fringes of those successes, still involved, still working,but might not get the breaks. It's not personal. Just business. Happens that way. 

One of those people is "your's truly."

But through it all, we still know each other, still see each other from time to time. Kenny once told his wife that I was the guy who kept him in Nashville when he was all depressed and wanted to quit. So I guess I have some value.

But if you want even more evidence, look  at it like this.

Through Big Kenny, I met David Vincent Williams. David and I wrote "Rescued Me" which was recorded by JOHN BERRY. Last year I met, hung out with and wrote with John Berry. Through David, I met RICHARD ORGA, who would go on to be the publisher of I'M MOVING ON and IT'S FIVE O'CLOCK SOMEWHERE. " Richard got out of the business for a few years but now has come back with a new publishing company and a management company. When I first was working with Richard, we missed with the publishing deal we tried to do on me. That is a WEIRD STORY. 
But though that I developed our relationship. The first artist I was going to bring to him was FRANKIE BALLARD, but Frankie got signed before I could get him there. The second artist I brought him is DANI JAMERSON, who is currently working with Richard, who is connecting her with other writers and helping build what she is doing.

One person who meets another person who introduces that one to another person. Sooner or later, you find your songs, yourself, in different and sometimes better places. If you were to look at Eric Church, Chris Stapelton, Luke Bryan, Megan Trainer, Kacey Ballerini, Casey Musgraves, Lady A, Little Big Town, you name it, their careers are very similar. They come to town. They hang out. They work on their craft and their relationships. They form little circles of friends. Those friends move into positions of power and their own work gets elevated.

Six degrees of separations. 
That is how it works.

MAB
Phillip (phil g.) Grigg

Thanks for the history MAB. Exactly the answer I expected. But I wanted anyone following this thread to hear the story also. Then, there s another friend of yours, I think we have talked about, and a hero of mine; Jeffery Steel. I think I heard he actually wanted to be an artist? I've watched a few U-Tubes of his earlier days. He was "different" back then. Ahead of his time. At least in the videos I watched.


I actually had the pleasure of meeting Jeffery at a Durango Songwriters Festival back in the late 90's early 2000's. Really nice guy and took time to talk to a lot of guys that were just there from where ever for the festival, and to learn. Turns out, back then anyway, he was an avid mountain bike rider and had brought his bike to go riding the next day. (I didn't even think to bring my bike!#! Oh well.) He did a question and answer session so a lot of us lined up. My question was did he ever rewrite songs. His answer really surprised and upset several of the NSAI members that were there. NSAI's mantra is for their members to rewrite, rewrite, rewrite. Jeffery said he didn't really rewrite. He just wrote another song. (MAB IS always right!!!) But, I think the best guidance he gave us was, that when he wrote, he always tried to build some kind of tension, lyrically and melodically, to lead from the verse into the chorus, which always really stood out from the verses in his songs. That was his "trademark", and when you listened to a new song back then, you could tell from that signature if Jeffery had written it.


This Durango festival was right after he had written, "I'm Tryin", a huge hit for Trace Adkins, and he performed that song for us. I remember thinking at the time that Jeffery did the song better than the one I had heard on the radio, and wandered why he wasn't an artist. I still don't know? BUT, a few years later, I was working in Arlington, VA and would drive to Atlantic City for the weekend. On some of those drives, somewhere between Maryland and New Jersey, I DID hear Jeffery on the radio with a rocker tune, "Must Be Something In The Water". I was just sure he was on his way! But, I never heard that song in Arlington, or in Denver, where I lived at the time. Nor did I ever hear any more Jeffery Steel tunes on the radio. Was very disappointed. But he sure left a BIG mark on Nashville as a songwriter. I hope he is doing well these days. Haven't heard too much about him in a while.


phil g.

Dan Lamons

Dan,

Sorry I misspelled your name. A lot of time, I glance over this stuff and try to respond before it gets too far away. Simple mistake. Good to hear from you. You should try to catch up with Phil while you are in that area, even if it means going a little out of your way to have a meal or drink with him. Phil is another one I have enjoyed getting to know over the years. And another one that I see those threads of improvement each time I see him. 

The "Villages" probably does have some form of talent show or writers thing you could check out. There are a LOT of people who write and perform songs, many who have done it all their lives, so it might be a nice little group to hang out with. Be worth checking out. I have seen you perform and you most definately should get out there and do a few songs here and there. Might make some really good relationships. 

Be careful traveling. Check in from time to time. Good to hear from you.

MAB



I figured you was just yankin my chain because the 1st time I ever posted in your forum i mispelled your name and you replied calling me Don.

The villages has live music every where 365,days a year and they have a club for any interest you may have. It is 110,000 people over 55. Someone like you could do well here. Live entertainment is everywhere. Mostly solo artist and some bands.

PhilG if you read this,and if interested,just drop me a line. We are at the Waterfront Inn @lake sumter. We reserve a table in the lounge @ 6 pm, dance and drink a couple of hours and move it up the street to City Fire @ lake sumter and do the same til midnite.

Friday we are taking a cab over to City Fire @ Brownwood and party with our favorite band. The Boogie Brothers, great little 3pc dance band who packs the floor all night. We are her til sunday morning when we head home.
Phillip (phil g.) Grigg

Dan, Yes. I know where the Waterfront Inn is. So, today is Wednesday the 6th. If I just show up tomorrow night, Thursday the 7th, around 6pm, you guys will be there? I don't remember if there is a dress code or not. Last time I went there, I kind of felt under dressed in a t-shirt and jeans. Maybe if I wore one of my FBISF volunteer sweater shirts and jeans I'd be O.K.??


I'll check this thread, and I'm also sending you a songramp message with my phone number so you can call me.


phil g.

Marc-Alan  Barnette
Oh boy, the guys are headed to the Villages! I figured they would have a lot of entertainment there with that population. Don, I think you are correct, it would be a good fit for me, at least I would be around people more my own age! LOL! Hope to make it one day. You guys have a good time and give a report when you get together. 

Don, I didn't remember anything about misspelled names. I tend to look at these posts, and glance at the names, usually concentrating more on responding to the posts, as opposed to focusing on names, so I actually just make mistakes. When it is someone I am not used to seeing, I try to respond as quickly as I can. So no, I was not yanking your chain. Just an innocent mistake. But it is good to hear from you and I hope you have a great trip.

Phil, Jeffery is a great one to talk about. You have part of the story, and I'll see if I can fill in a few blanks. Jeff and I are pretty good friends and I've seen that story from the beginning as well. Will try to tell that one next.

Good to see you guys posting.
MAB
Phillip (phil g.) Grigg

Well, tonight was one of those strange rewarding, but still frustrating nights. I got a call from a friend in Gainesville who said there was an open mic tonight at a pizza place and wanted to know if I was going. My first response was, "probably not." But my wife overheard my half of the conversation and said I should go and get out of the house. So, I listened to her and decided to go. Then, I spent about an hour going over several songs I thought I knew, and I thought I was ready. Then it was my turn. The very first song!! It is a bluesy A,A,B,A,A format. I got through the first and second verse OK. and got half way through the bridge and suddenly got lost. THEN, I totally lost it for verse 3 and 4. Just played through the chords and sort of finished with some of the 4th verse lyrics. The next 2 or 3 songs went very well. No lyric mistakes and mostly right on with chord progressions (which I've learned can be fudged a little). Then I asked the host if I had one more and he said yes. I should have just quit while I was ahead. When I was talking to the host, I felt like my voice was kind of "freezing up". But I went ahead and [tried] the next song. I had to sing most of it in a horse kind of voice, almost hitting the notes. Luckily, the higher notes I could somehow get. It was the mid and lower range notes I had to try  and keep a horse kind of vocal. But, I managed to struggle through it. And MAB, I'm kind of embarrassed to say, that last song I decided to do was, "Bored Games", one of my favorite songs to do at open mic's. I've never had that happen before. First time for everything I guess. LOL


phil g.

Marc-Alan  Barnette
                                                             JEFFERY STEELE, Nashville's Bruce Springsteen

First of all Phil, you should know that Jeffery IS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE FIRST AND FOREMOST AN ARTIST. It's how his career got started and even today, he is much more artist than anything else. He routinely does 4 and 5 hour shows, doing continuous versions of his hits, leading us to call him "JEFFERY STEEL BLADDER!" My friend Rusty Golden played keyboards with him for years and there is nothing quite like seeing Jeffery full speed. He wears me out. And I've done a half dozen shows with him. Some of my most fun times are myself, him and Jimbeau Hinson. That is  SONGWRITING ON STEROIDS! But on to the MAN OF STEELE!

He got his start in LOS ANGELES in the 80's and early 90's. He was the bass player and lead singer in a band called BOY HOWDY. They were the house band for the world famous PALAMINO club, which was the top country bar in LA, In addition to playing their own songs, they were the house band, backing up people like Buck Owens, Merle Haggard, Waylon Jennings, any of the major stars who would swing through without a backing band. They did hundreds of shows and played the rest of the weeks as a regular cover band. 

They had a hit called "SHE'LL DO ANYTHING" in the mid 80's while still being in LA, Jeff was the lead singer and wrote the song. In the early 90's they moved to Nashville and he'll be the first to tell you, brought a hefty helping of "LA attitude" with him, which we still get a lot of. The LA people tend to think they are in HOLLYWOOD and are trying to outcool each other. It also brings a lot of arrogance. Jeff had plenty of that and still laughs at himself. I mean, he had a number one BEFORE he got to Nashville.

He got here and went COLD. Even while having three record deals, and continually touring, none of his songs got TRACTION and he didn;t get any cuts either. About eight years of this and no one really knew what to do with him. His main "big break" came when he started writing with a guy who moved to town named "BIG AL" ANDERSON. Big Al was very well known, from his band NRBQ, which was this legendary college touring band. Think GRATEFUL DEAD of colleges. They toured everywhere and were huge. They did that for about 20 years but were virtually unknown outside of colleges. But some of the people that were GOING to those colleges, being in the fraternities, worshiping "THE Q" would go on to head up record labels, publishing companies, television networks. When Al moved to Nashville wanting to be a songwriter they fell all over themselves to give him the key to the city. Hero worship pure and simple. 

Al and Jeffery started writing together. Since everyone wanted to hear Al's songs, the doors flew open. The first big hit they had was a number eight called UNBELIEVABLE, from a group called DIAMOND RIO. Was their first big hit and was followed by several more. Jeffery became red hot, and got cut after cut after cut. And his deal  with MCA was picked up and they put him out on the road. The song you mentioned, "SOMETHING IN THE WATER" was a single but could not get radio airplay. At one of the radio stations, Jeffery was doing an interview. Doing a commercial break, he looked straight at the DJ and asked why he was not playing that record. The DJ him hawed around and said he "Didn't fit the format" for the station. Jeffery looked at their play list and found he had five songs in the top 20 on other artists. 

So he kept playing but eventually lost his deal. He continued to write and produce other acts. One time, Jimbeau, myself, Rusty Golden and two other writers traveled with Jeff by bus to Mississippi to play in Jimbeau's home town of Newton Mississippi. A tornado had hit the town and wiped out a lot of that community. So we were doing a benefit for the town. He was telling us about this new band he was producing and played some demos. That band would go on to be known as RASCAL FLATTS. He was producing his songs on them. One of those songs, THESE DAYS would go on to be a big hit. Again, trying to get pitches on songs is so hard because the producers are usually writers too and you have to deliver songs better than there on. With Jefferey, that is a tall order.
On that  show, that was pretty cool, there was me and Jeff, who are both left handed, and three other guitar players, who were right handed. So we looked like a really strange Eagles, with guitars pointing in all kinds of directions. For those of you who think left handers look weird, it looks weird to us to. But we can play each other's guitars, which has happened on numerous occassions as well.

At one point, around 2010, I heard him on a radio interview, The guy interviewing him had pulled up his resume and said that in an 8 year span Jeffery had had over 100 cuts, 87 top 20's, around 13 top tens and five number ones. With a track record like that, he probably doesn't have to get another cut. But I believe he has some new stuff coming out. Should be good.

He is second only to CRAIG WISEMAN in success ratio in this town and still the gold standard. and he has payed it forward, writing with people like Cris Wallin, on the song "I'M TRYIN' which was Chris's first big hit and started a string of his hits that still go on today. Jeffery is very good about taking time to talk to writers. He was doing a "songwriter's boot camp" but it was a bit pricey and he got a lot of ribbing from his contemporaries and I think he quit doing it. The only thing about Jeff is that he has ADD and often his workshops or conversation will drift and it is hard to follow him. 

I helped my friends Cliff and Bev, set up a workshop with him and had him out one year. I helped them on everything but forgot one detail. I prepared them by saying you had to have questions prepared to get him BACK on track when he drifts off. But I forgot to tell them that you also have to TELL HIM THE WORKSHOP IS AN HOUR EARLIER THAN IT IS. Because he is terminally LATE. Sure enough, on the day of the workshop, he showed up an hour and a half late. Fortunately,I had also arranged for a friend of mine and my song plugger at the time, Penny Dionne, to be out there at the same time. She managed to cover him by answering song plugger questions from the group. And that jump started her career as a song plugger. So Jeff helps other people by not even being there. 

So that is Jeffery. Great guy, very successful and even if you don't always hear of him, he is always around. One of the cool things about him is that he carries the memory with his Dad every where. His real name is LAVASSEA. But his Dad owned a metal manufacturing shop. So he changed his name to "STEEL" in tribute to his Father. If you have ever heard the Montgomery Gentry song, "THIS IS MY TOWN", you hear a line that says 
"When it came to blows with my ol Man" That actually was about his Dad. But his Dad didn't hit him. His Dad hit his brother and knocked him through a screen door, when his brother made disparaging remarks about the country and the military during Vietnam. So he puts stuff about his family in all his songs. The song "MY WISH" was written for his daughter's wedding. And "What Hurts the Most" is about his son, Alex, who was killed in an ATV accident when he was 12 years old. He built a children's park in his memory and does a lot of charity work each year in Alex's memory.

Just like all the things we are talking about. It is about one person knowing,writing with, building relationships with another person and another and another. 

That's how careers are created.

MAB
Marc-Alan  Barnette
Man Phil, you don't learn do you? If you are doing songs with THREE AND FOUR VERSES, no wonder you are wiffing it. If you are going past two verses, you are getting to two verses too much. Keep it short man, Less is More. That should teach you something. One  of the reasons we write them shorter is that not only can WE not remember them, but the AUDIENCE NEVER LIKES TO HEAR THEM. Remember, "DON'T BORE US, GET TO THE CHORUS"!!!!

Keep working. Get back up and do it again.

MAB
Phillip (phil g.) Grigg

MAB, it IS a "short song". A standard 12 bar quick change blues tune, with a 10 bar bridge. The whole song is under 3 min. long. Even at around 110 BPM. There is no long intro, just the 2 bar turn around, and no outro. It just happens to me. Too much. Very frustrating. And the lyrics don't even fill up the whole 12 bars. Here's an example:


V1 I had a good woman but I treated her a little too bad (4 bars; 1,4,1,1)

     Yes I had a good woman, but I went and made her voodoo mad. (4 bars; 4,4,1,1)

     She put some hair in a cloth,  (1 bar; 5)

    Then she put a pin in the doll  (1 bar; 4)


    2 bar turn around; (1, 1/5)


All 4 verses are just 4 short lines long. The bridge is also only 2 or 4 lines, depending on how you count it.


No different really than any standard blues tune.


It just happens. I can practice these songs at home until my voice quits, may fingers hurt, and my hands go numb. Every chord, every line; DONE. Then I get on stage and, Oh Well!! But I guess I'm in good company. I've seen great writers like Joel Shewmake and a guy called MAB, along with several others I can't remember the names, break down and just loose it in the middle of a song. LOL


phil g.


Marc-Alan  Barnette
Oh I see. Blues. The Sominex of songs. Tell the truth, Phil, did you actually fall asleep in the middle of that song? That is probably what happened. Blues, 1-4-5 songs have been noted to lead to 'blues blackouts" where they bore the person playing them so much in the middle they fall asleep. It may have seemed like 3 minutes to you, but that is because you actually blacked out for the middle 22 and a half minutes. It is part of that same thing UFO abductees go through, where they lose time and can't explain it. They actually just fell asleep and dreamed through it. That is probably what happened to you. 

Yes, we all wiff from time to time. Don't worry about it. Work on cutting the blues songs down to about a minute. That should clear up any problems you have.

MAB
Phillip (phil g.) Grigg

This is a little of track, but I got a story for y'all. Did you know; Arkansas is named indirectly after Annie Oakley? Yep. One day she was in a heated argument with the then governor of the still un-named territory. She was using foul language. Things like, "Well Gove. You're just a darn ignorant idiot!" That was considered foul language for a lady back in them days. Even a 6 shooter totin', Winchester shootin woman who could knock a piss ant of a china bowl. And that is a small creature. But I digress. At one point the governor said, "Hold on there young lady! You need to watch your foul mouth!" To which Annie replied,"Gov! Ar-Kan-Sass anyone I wont too!!"


And that friends, is how Arkansas got it's name. True story


phil g.

Phillip (phil g.) Grigg

Well MAB, it wasn't a UFO experience. I've already been there done that. When I was about 5 or 6 years old. I woke up in the middle of the night and there was this little green man standing by my bed. When he realized I had seen him, he immediately disappeared. I think he must have just returned me to my bed from a kidnaping to his mother ship from what ever foreign planet he came from. Don't remember a thing about the trip though. That's how they do it. They give their victim's some kind of secret mind clearing drug just before they bring them back.


phil g. 

Phillip (phil g.) Grigg

Oh yes, MAB. Thanks for the Paul Harvey, "Rest of the story", about Jeffery. It's always great to hear about folks you admire. Sounds like he's still going strong. I guess I should get on his web site and start following his tour schedule so I can go catch a show. Might even look him up on FB.


phil g.

Marc-Alan  Barnette
Yeah Phil. That's probably how they do it. Either that or the same way the Irish came up with the leprecan.

"I swear Shamus, der e was....three feet tall, all dressed in green, big hat and huge red hair and bushy beard! Wee little man was talkin' all about 'is pot o' gold!! E was dere one minute, and den he dissapeared! It was MAGIC!!!!"

"Ah come on McSwain. Ya was druunk again! Dat was the Sean O'connel midget kid again, drinkin' at O'Tools!"

I got you Phil. We see it a lot. You just put yourself into a "musically induced momentary coma" (MIMC) and drifted off for twenty minutes or so. Happens a lot during the blues songs. Don't worry. You may recover. Apparently if you've seen the little green men since you were young, it's probably a defective gene in there somewhere. Medical therapy can help you with that.

MAB
Marc-Alan  Barnette

Oh yes, MAB. Thanks for the Paul Harvey, "Rest of the story", about Jeffery. It's always great to hear about folks you admire. Sounds like he's still going strong. I guess I should get on his web site and start following his tour schedule so I can go catch a show. Might even look him up on FB.


phil g.






Like about 90% of the writers and artists in this town. They are generally still around out there. I played a show over the Holidays in the home of some HUGE Jeffery superfans. They travel all over to see him. They had gotten back from Canada where he was playing up there, and were about to go to Hawaii later this month, where he was playing, after getting off a cruise for ten days. He's a guy that is kind of everywhere. Just when you think you have not heard from him, he pops up all over the place. 
Also over the holidays, someone was talking about him and some new act he has been producing, three girls I think. So you'll be hearing about that at some point.
Arty Redsocks
Hello to everyone, long time since contributing to this side of the fence and now after my self-imposed exile from Songramp since last May, (peed off with the lack of contribution on the Lyric Forum) I hope this finds you all well and safe after the Christmas Season

So what have I been doing, well best of all been going to Open Mics (sometimes 5 in a week) and some with my son. My son is blessed with a beautiful voice – must be from the Kiwi Maori grandparents – and he is off to England to see what he can do with music sob sob but it is his dream, tried talking him into Nashville or Austin but his market is England.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=944777555552872

This is him playing at a Festival at the Basin (first time I went out to an open mic with him almost had tears it was so beautiful, also like the fact he only plays three verses!!)
He does play his own stuff mostly but this is the only recording I have.
As for me I feel I am now at the next stage of development and have finished the basic apprenticeship of being a songwriter but must now learn to be a professional tradesman incorporating the business of being a songwriter and doing the required networking etc.
1. I am sure now I can a write a song or even 5 per day for extended periods of time with fresh ideas, so if I ever get the opportunity to write up I am confident in myself I would not be wasting their time.
2. Am about to BAND UP as “Arty Redsocks and the Holey Souls” with a couple of gigs already planned. This was not my original intention as I still want to be a writer but if they won’t play em I have to.
3. Up Tempo is king but you still need some change or contrast in there.
4. One of the things as part of my development has been the change from fairly static open mic performances to see whether the song itself is strong enough to semi performance just like they do on TV LOL
5. Kept writing and critiquing as these things can only help – as a case in point the 375th song I wrote for the last FAWM 50/90 has gotten amazing reactions with the audiences

I have read up on the last 15 or so pages and the one thing that drew my attention was MAB’s line
“…IN MY OPINION (always have to start out with that) it is about being clear and trying to avoid what everyone else is doing.”
Decided about 18 months ago, to not watch or worry too much about the hit songs as has been said many times, these are already old hat to the industry. But this is at odds with the general advice given of trying to write for Jason Keith etc… Robin Frederick for instance does some great analysis of current hit songs, but everybody is trying / doing those songs!

So isn’t the idea to try and predict or at least work to something fresh or unique. I know I watch the audience and having now done at least 150 different original songs live to mostly 18 – 30 year olds and then again to an older audience the funny thing is an ugly old 3 chord playing, average voice at best gets a better more receptive audience from the younger ones. They are generally receptive to new songs.

The older demographic open mics are invariably all covers, all night and although there are course some strong supporters of originals these nights are generally ruder and less interested in originals with that candy crush game particularly popular– this is not to say I don’t have some really good nights there - but I now walk out when they play MUSTANG SALLY.
But the best audience of all are the clients at the Centre for disabilities I work in. I play a couple of times a week there, one for the ladies room which I only play my originals, another for a Down Syndrome Client which are the songs he likes and then old songs for the Older Adults. If the ladies like the song I can tell you, they are very beat / rhythm dependant, playing it out live to an audience will work

It struck me the first time I worked in Disability care back in the 70’s their love of ABBA, it was amazing for the next time and now this time it is unchanged across the age of 18 – 57. If you can distil what they had sure better time spent than moaning about crap lyrics on the radio.

Well it is now 4.00 am I have spent three hours writing a song, reading of forum pages and writing this novel and I think it may be time for bed.
Would love to learn more about the writers collective but for some other time may be

"get into the beer" and make observations that he might rather keep to himself. That is something we ALL do, and many people never realize that. The entire internet is made up of people that should "think before they press 'SEND.'".
WOW

Arty
Marc-Alan  Barnette
                                               "TOO LONG FEELISM...SAY/PLAY TOO MUCH ITUS" Syndrome

Phil, all joking aside, I would like to point out a few observations I have watching and listening to so many other people's music and seeing mistakes they make. OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER....(you get the idea) AGAIN. It might help on what we are talking about.

One of the things about songs is that they can be decieving. Especially when it comes to time frames. You might have a song that is only about three minutes. But it gets so REDUNDANT that to the average listener it FEELS LIKE TEN MINUTES. This happens a lot with the blues oriented songs. Blues being played by a solo person is singlehandedly just about the most boring things you can have. Even people who are very good, (and I consider myself pretty accomplished at this) can't really get away much with standard blues stuff without putting people out like a light. They may be still watching and listening, but their eyes and attention span are as glazed over as a five hour lecture on Ancient Greek History. The Blues have always been driven by INSTRUMENTALS. That is why BB KING, ERIC CLAPTON, ELMORE JAMES, ROBERT JOHNSON, STEVIE RAY VAUGHN, etc. have achieved such legendary status, because they PLAYED THE BLUES and that is what they are known for. Even the great blues singers, like Ray Charles and BB, depended on accompniment to put the blues over.

So when you have an ACOUSTIC song that is primarily a one four five song, it is going to drone on no matter how short it is. So it goes back to doing FEWER VERSES. Even the short ones "feel long" because there is nothing else going on. We see it a lot here. Actually had to listen to it for about 5 hours yesterday. People on writers nights and open mics, getting up, doing their songs, and you can put a stop watch on them. The songs are not that long time wise but because there is not much else happening, the FEEL like a lifetime. 

On the other side of the spectrum is PLAY TOO MUCH and SAY TOO MUCH ITUS. This is where there are so many rapid fire lyrics, so many guitar movements that it is one big blur of nothingness. An interesting  phenomeon I see over and over through this, is so many younger artists who do this. And not only with myself, who are actually TRYING to listen to what they are doing, but the general public, are finding themselves halfway through songs going "what is this even about?" 

It's happening throughout the music culture, where you have tons of songs out there, that say A LOT without saying nothing at all. And is it interesting that there is a corresponding drop off in money for writers, artists, etc. as the general public tunes out? I don't think so.

It is all part and parcel to what I have seen over the past decade in what I lovingly refer to as "GLOW SONGS." This is where the entire audience, a table at a time, simply tuning out, pulling out their cell phones and texting away. You see the "glow" in their faces. "Glow songs." get it?

What I think it means to us that are trying to get attention (or KEEP ATTENTION) is that we have to analyze every line and every note on our songs. Phil, for my own thing, yes, I have wiffed plenty of times. Which reminds me that I have to do this too. The reason I write songs very tightly is that I CAN'T REMEMBER these lyrics. Try to get 2500-3000 songs and keep anything straight. Not very easily. 

But you have to watch the other side of the coin as well, and not dwindle down into the boring world. If you are having trouble remembering these songs, you might want to go back and make sure what you are saying is interesting. If not, you might seriously think about dropping a verse or two. All in serving the song. 

MAB


Marc-Alan  Barnette
Arty,

Good to hear from you. Sounds like you are being quite the productive one. That is great congratulations. 

It is always a fine line between being SIMPLE and SIMPLISTIC. And that is the thing about the simpler songs, chord structures, information. SIMPLE is very good. You need to be clear, understandable and easy to define, with the listening public and therefore the business. That means not cluttering up what you are trying to say. And while I understand your comments on MUSTANG SALLY, there is a reason that song is still a standard nearly 50 years after it came out and why it gets a crowd cheer and fills a dance floor everytime it is played. 

IT WORKS.

And that is more of the "simple" elements of songs that grab the audience. Having a simple, easy to sing and remember chorus, is always going to stand out with the listening audience. 

Being SIMPLISTIC where it seems to "dumb down" audiences, to me is never a good idea, although a lot of our culture is about that. That is where everyone seems to write the same songs, use the same grooves, the same chord progression, the same rhymes. That is what I call "TREND WRITING" and the downfall of so many writers and artists are where they do that and end up short in the listening public. 

We are in a pretty rude culture to begin with. People have the attention span of a goldfish and are very easily distracted. So coming with the "same thing they have heard a ca jillion times before" the same way, is what we need to try and avoid. At least we can try. 
In my own efforts, when people I work with bring in these "same old worn out" ideas, I will skip the idea completely if I can't find something else to say.

So yes, we need to observe "K.I.S.S", (Keep it simple Songwriter.) but we don't need to be SIMPLISTIC.

Again, my opinion.

On the "group dynamic" if you are talking about my California/Michigan efforts or what I have seen happening around the country that works and many things that don't, it is quite simply just finding people in your area who can be allies for you and your music. This could be artists, musicians, other writers, or just friends of your music who will come out and support you when you perform, buy your product, or just join your team.

It has pretty much always been this way, particularly in an entertainment city like New York. Los Angeles or Nashville. There have to be many people involved, so finding a way to do that, however you do it, is what the "group dynamic" is about. Some is an out and out business "survival" method. 

Publishers, record companies, etc. are simply not LISTENING to anything any more. They are too busy promoting their own brands, songs, artists, etc. of people they physically know now, than they are in going outside, even to Internet based sites. As I heard one producer recently tell an audience in a question and answer night. 

The question was about how you get people to listen to songs in this day and age. The producer was onstage in an interview section and people from the audience were asking questions. It always invaribly comes up that every door is closed and have the "No unsolicited Material" signs everywhere. The questioner wanted to know the single biggest question every one asks that tries to do this, "If you can't get anyone to listen to your songs, HOW DO YOU GET THEM HEARD?"

The producer said (I'm paraphrasing) "It's like having someone to work on your house. If you have problems, plumbing, carpentry, or renovations or even building something new, you are not going to take a chance on having shoddy work or spending an ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF MONEY, often wasted, on people you don't know. You are not just going to go to nameless people. You are going to ask your friends, find out references, or use actual people you personally KNOW to come over and do the work. Good and bad reputations get out there all the time. 

It is like that with songs, writers and artists. If you are good at what you do, do it consistently, your reputation gets out. If you run in the circles of people I know and trust, chances are that I am going to hear about you. That is how you earn your way in."

So my particular process go BEYOND just the song. Songs need advocates, as you said, if you can't find someone else to do your songs, you have to do them yourself. Well, my concept is always in FINDING someone to do your songs by including them IN your songs. Making it a part of their lives, their own world, is the important thing to do and essential in today's self focused world we live in. We just have to find them sooner now.

Good luck to you for continued success. Hope you won't stay away so long this time. If you didn't have luck in the lyric forum, always feel free to contact me privately if you want me to look at something. Always try to help if I can.

MAB
John Westwood
Hello ARTY,

Ive been dropping into soundcloud to listen when ever I get a notification

Jw
Arty Redsocks
JW, appreciate it very much, have only had 4 GB of bandwidth each month (mobile only, no home broadband) but changed over to Optus and they were offering 10 GB for $40 pm allowing a bit more freedom, oh and stopped working 12 – 13 hour days!

MAB, thank you for your kind offer expect the first 150 lyrics in an email soon LOL.

As for artists down here in Melbourne there are some interesting developing phenomena, firstly most Open Mics are pre booked (I refuse to partake of this practice) and the performers come in like stars before they are about to play and leave soon after, SAGO’s (Sing And GO’s) so it is not uncommon to have a full list every night and yet only 3 to 4 people watching at any one time. Truly there are performers who I have seen play nearly every week and they are yet to see me play once! I am a believer in start to finish even though I start at 7.00 each morning.

I am still fooled by performers who do not give credit to the songs origins, could almost make a man cynical, if they don’t say they wrote it, they didn’t. This said the debate at such nights to not profess I only play originals could work against the hopeful writer as well.

The other phenomena I have noticed is put on a show and if it is in the least bit interesting all of a sudden the mobile phones come out and they start filming – as I noted although mostly it has been about getting the song right so deliberately playing the song only with no introduction or performance aspect etc. but Wednesday night, two young girls barely 18 came up and asked me what time I was going on and if I would play “Born Again Virgin” – this is a song that worked out of the box so to speak and last played it at this place at least a month ago so had basically put it away, it works – got them up to do the hand actions for the chorus, along with four others in my Brotherly Love Gospel Choir, and voila a wall of mobile phones pointing at the stage.

This is pretty much the same for most performances I have seen, if the performer is doing something different or there is a visual aspect to the performance, out come the phones, make it humorous and bingo, the phone camera wall.

How this translate to the industry is of course the issue, as you noted no one from the industry comes around to these nights hoping to see and find “talent”, they have TV shows for that…

Further the song writing groups I have been to over the last year all revel in the fact they are ALT Country – I loathe this term – basically they are folk singers who take shortcuts in attempting to make rhyme and rely on hopefully the listeners are imbibing of some illegal substance to get worth or understanding from the lyric, but the COUNTRY terminology carries great creditability as to song writing etc. hmmm interesting conundrums.

This may sound as if I am a little jaded or disparaging of the situation down here in Melbourne, but as my son now understands, it could not be further from the truth. I don’t accept the situation as such and constantly talk to punters re songwriting and they GET IT, just not willing to put in any hard yards…. Seems they are believers in the X Factor / xxx Got Talent / The Voice will scoop them up and make stars of them.

So the formation of a writers group charged with helping talent rise with better songs although surely a bit of hard work, is a great idea and one worth the effort. Maybe a Peninsula Group and a City Central group eh JW with get a together for cross pollination?

The other phenomena is music establishments almost demand you have a full card if you want to play, they don’t want to fill spots / gaps, so with enough Talent it would be easy to fill a night which would help promote the group as the night would listed under the groups name…… hmmmm neural activity happening.

As for KISS, it is interesting with 3 chord theory (very funny about the sleepy 12 bars by the way) every second Saturday I go to an Old Timey session, for guitars we are either playing GDC or GAD but two songs with Em LOL But the variety of the tunes and differential is amazing, so for this reason I am not concerned, do use a lot of inversions and in some songs play three variations of the same chord.

There are much better players who will be charged with embellishing my song with their talent and for the Holey Soles I am seeking motown melodic bass, with blues lead and mostly brushes on the drums against the vocals and words with occasional guest star on the Dobro. Waiting confirmation on a texas swing piano player, can only hope!

Arty

I know what you mean but I still hate Mustang Sally it has always been like fingers down a blackboard to me!!