MAB, thanks for mentioning Chris Stapleton. I guess I haven't checked the billboard top 25 in a while. Chris has 2 songs still in the top 25; "Tennessee Whiskey", and "Nobody To Blame". Those are two really great songs. AND, they stand out from the rest of the current "country" songs. Again, radio sure is regional! I don't think I've heard either one of those more than once or twice, if at all, on the country station I listen to here.
Now, if I may, I have a question about some of those "big dog" writers you mentioned. Those guys didn't just drive into town and go to work for the big name producers, publishers, artists. So, pick one writer, and if you can, give us a history lesson oh how he/she "made it" to the big times. How did they get to meet someone already on the inside? Were they trying to be an artist, or just a writer? Did they do writer's nights, like Debbie's, Donnie's, or Lee's?
Really love your history stories!
phil g.
Just like today, there would be the same people over and over and you all grew great friendships out of that. There would be the guitar pulls, the outdoor cookouts, the pot luck dinners, getting together at churches, etc. and of course, the optinional pontoon boat (PONTOON!!!) whenever someone's roommate owned or had access to one. We tended to sneak around onto other people's property more than anything else.
The Kinleys Sony recording artists
David "Doc" Abbot future video director and documetaries for National Geographic
But though that I developed our relationship. The first artist I was going to bring to him was FRANKIE BALLARD, but Frankie got signed before I could get him there. The second artist I brought him is DANI JAMERSON, who is currently working with Richard, who is connecting her with other writers and helping build what she is doing.
Thanks for the history MAB. Exactly the answer I expected. But I wanted anyone following this thread to hear the story also. Then, there s another friend of yours, I think we have talked about, and a hero of mine; Jeffery Steel. I think I heard he actually wanted to be an artist? I've watched a few U-Tubes of his earlier days. He was "different" back then. Ahead of his time. At least in the videos I watched.
I actually had the pleasure of meeting Jeffery at a Durango Songwriters Festival back in the late 90's early 2000's. Really nice guy and took time to talk to a lot of guys that were just there from where ever for the festival, and to learn. Turns out, back then anyway, he was an avid mountain bike rider and had brought his bike to go riding the next day. (I didn't even think to bring my bike!#! Oh well.) He did a question and answer session so a lot of us lined up. My question was did he ever rewrite songs. His answer really surprised and upset several of the NSAI members that were there. NSAI's mantra is for their members to rewrite, rewrite, rewrite. Jeffery said he didn't really rewrite. He just wrote another song. (MAB IS always right!!!) But, I think the best guidance he gave us was, that when he wrote, he always tried to build some kind of tension, lyrically and melodically, to lead from the verse into the chorus, which always really stood out from the verses in his songs. That was his "trademark", and when you listened to a new song back then, you could tell from that signature if Jeffery had written it.
This Durango festival was right after he had written, "I'm Tryin", a huge hit for Trace Adkins, and he performed that song for us. I remember thinking at the time that Jeffery did the song better than the one I had heard on the radio, and wandered why he wasn't an artist. I still don't know? BUT, a few years later, I was working in Arlington, VA and would drive to Atlantic City for the weekend. On some of those drives, somewhere between Maryland and New Jersey, I DID hear Jeffery on the radio with a rocker tune, "Must Be Something In The Water". I was just sure he was on his way! But, I never heard that song in Arlington, or in Denver, where I lived at the time. Nor did I ever hear any more Jeffery Steel tunes on the radio. Was very disappointed. But he sure left a BIG mark on Nashville as a songwriter. I hope he is doing well these days. Haven't heard too much about him in a while.
phil g.
Dan,
I figured you was just yankin my chain because the 1st time I ever posted in your forum i mispelled your name and you replied calling me Don.
The villages has live music every where 365,days a year and they have a club for any interest you may have. It is 110,000 people over 55. Someone like you could do well here. Live entertainment is everywhere. Mostly solo artist and some bands.
PhilG if you read this,and if interested,just drop me a line. We are at the Waterfront Inn @lake sumter. We reserve a table in the lounge @ 6 pm, dance and drink a couple of hours and move it up the street to City Fire @ lake sumter and do the same til midnite.
Friday we are taking a cab over to City Fire @ Brownwood and party with our favorite band. The Boogie Brothers, great little 3pc dance band who packs the floor all night. We are her til sunday morning when we head home.
Dan, Yes. I know where the Waterfront Inn is. So, today is Wednesday the 6th. If I just show up tomorrow night, Thursday the 7th, around 6pm, you guys will be there? I don't remember if there is a dress code or not. Last time I went there, I kind of felt under dressed in a t-shirt and jeans. Maybe if I wore one of my FBISF volunteer sweater shirts and jeans I'd be O.K.??
I'll check this thread, and I'm also sending you a songramp message with my phone number so you can call me.
phil g.
Well, tonight was one of those strange rewarding, but still frustrating nights. I got a call from a friend in Gainesville who said there was an open mic tonight at a pizza place and wanted to know if I was going. My first response was, "probably not." But my wife overheard my half of the conversation and said I should go and get out of the house. So, I listened to her and decided to go. Then, I spent about an hour going over several songs I thought I knew, and I thought I was ready. Then it was my turn. The very first song!! It is a bluesy A,A,B,A,A format. I got through the first and second verse OK. and got half way through the bridge and suddenly got lost. THEN, I totally lost it for verse 3 and 4. Just played through the chords and sort of finished with some of the 4th verse lyrics. The next 2 or 3 songs went very well. No lyric mistakes and mostly right on with chord progressions (which I've learned can be fudged a little). Then I asked the host if I had one more and he said yes. I should have just quit while I was ahead. When I was talking to the host, I felt like my voice was kind of "freezing up". But I went ahead and [tried] the next song. I had to sing most of it in a horse kind of voice, almost hitting the notes. Luckily, the higher notes I could somehow get. It was the mid and lower range notes I had to try and keep a horse kind of vocal. But, I managed to struggle through it. And MAB, I'm kind of embarrassed to say, that last song I decided to do was, "Bored Games", one of my favorite songs to do at open mic's. I've never had that happen before. First time for everything I guess. LOL
phil g.
On that show, that was pretty cool, there was me and Jeff, who are both left handed, and three other guitar players, who were right handed. So we looked like a really strange Eagles, with guitars pointing in all kinds of directions. For those of you who think left handers look weird, it looks weird to us to. But we can play each other's guitars, which has happened on numerous occassions as well.
MAB, it IS a "short song". A standard 12 bar quick change blues tune, with a 10 bar bridge. The whole song is under 3 min. long. Even at around 110 BPM. There is no long intro, just the 2 bar turn around, and no outro. It just happens to me. Too much. Very frustrating. And the lyrics don't even fill up the whole 12 bars. Here's an example:
V1 I had a good woman but I treated her a little too bad (4 bars; 1,4,1,1)
Yes I had a good woman, but I went and made her voodoo mad. (4 bars; 4,4,1,1)
She put some hair in a cloth, (1 bar; 5)
Then she put a pin in the doll (1 bar; 4)
2 bar turn around; (1, 1/5)
All 4 verses are just 4 short lines long. The bridge is also only 2 or 4 lines, depending on how you count it.
No different really than any standard blues tune.
It just happens. I can practice these songs at home until my voice quits, may fingers hurt, and my hands go numb. Every chord, every line; DONE. Then I get on stage and, Oh Well!! But I guess I'm in good company. I've seen great writers like Joel Shewmake and a guy called MAB, along with several others I can't remember the names, break down and just loose it in the middle of a song. LOL
phil g.
This is a little of track, but I got a story for y'all. Did you know; Arkansas is named indirectly after Annie Oakley? Yep. One day she was in a heated argument with the then governor of the still un-named territory. She was using foul language. Things like, "Well Gove. You're just a darn ignorant idiot!" That was considered foul language for a lady back in them days. Even a 6 shooter totin', Winchester shootin woman who could knock a piss ant of a china bowl. And that is a small creature. But I digress. At one point the governor said, "Hold on there young lady! You need to watch your foul mouth!" To which Annie replied,"Gov! Ar-Kan-Sass anyone I wont too!!"
And that friends, is how Arkansas got it's name. True story  
phil g.
Well MAB, it wasn't a UFO experience. I've already been there done that. When I was about 5 or 6 years old. I woke up in the middle of the night and there was this little green man standing by my bed. When he realized I had seen him, he immediately disappeared. I think he must have just returned me to my bed from a kidnaping to his mother ship from what ever foreign planet he came from. Don't remember a thing about the trip though. That's how they do it. They give their victim's some kind of secret mind clearing drug just before they bring them back.
phil g.
Oh yes, MAB. Thanks for the Paul Harvey, "Rest of the story", about Jeffery. It's always great to hear about folks you admire. Sounds like he's still going strong. I guess I should get on his web site and start following his tour schedule so I can go catch a show. Might even look him up on FB.
phil g.
Oh yes, MAB. Thanks for the Paul Harvey, "Rest of the story", about Jeffery. It's always great to hear about folks you admire. Sounds like he's still going strong. I guess I should get on his web site and start following his tour schedule so I can go catch a show. Might even look him up on FB.
phil g.
So what have I been doing, well best of all been going to Open Mics (sometimes 5 in a week) and some with my son. My son is blessed with a beautiful voice – must be from the Kiwi Maori grandparents – and he is off to England to see what he can do with music sob sob but it is his dream, tried talking him into Nashville or Austin but his market is England.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=944777555552872
This is him playing at a Festival at the Basin (first time I went out to an open mic with him almost had tears it was so beautiful, also like the fact he only plays three verses!!)
He does play his own stuff mostly but this is the only recording I have.
As for me I feel I am now at the next stage of development and have finished the basic apprenticeship of being a songwriter but must now learn to be a professional tradesman incorporating the business of being a songwriter and doing the required networking etc.
1. I am sure now I can a write a song or even 5 per day for extended periods of time with fresh ideas, so if I ever get the opportunity to write up I am confident in myself I would not be wasting their time.
2. Am about to BAND UP as “Arty Redsocks and the Holey Souls” with a couple of gigs already planned. This was not my original intention as I still want to be a writer but if they won’t play em I have to.
3. Up Tempo is king but you still need some change or contrast in there.
4. One of the things as part of my development has been the change from fairly static open mic performances to see whether the song itself is strong enough to semi performance just like they do on TV LOL
5. Kept writing and critiquing as these things can only help – as a case in point the 375th song I wrote for the last FAWM 50/90 has gotten amazing reactions with the audiences
I have read up on the last 15 or so pages and the one thing that drew my attention was MAB’s line
“…IN MY OPINION (always have to start out with that) it is about being clear and trying to avoid what everyone else is doing.”
Decided about 18 months ago, to not watch or worry too much about the hit songs as has been said many times, these are already old hat to the industry. But this is at odds with the general advice given of trying to write for Jason Keith etc… Robin Frederick for instance does some great analysis of current hit songs, but everybody is trying / doing those songs!
So isn’t the idea to try and predict or at least work to something fresh or unique. I know I watch the audience and having now done at least 150 different original songs live to mostly 18 – 30 year olds and then again to an older audience the funny thing is an ugly old 3 chord playing, average voice at best gets a better more receptive audience from the younger ones. They are generally receptive to new songs.
The older demographic open mics are invariably all covers, all night and although there are course some strong supporters of originals these nights are generally ruder and less interested in originals with that candy crush game particularly popular– this is not to say I don’t have some really good nights there - but I now walk out when they play MUSTANG SALLY.
But the best audience of all are the clients at the Centre for disabilities I work in. I play a couple of times a week there, one for the ladies room which I only play my originals, another for a Down Syndrome Client which are the songs he likes and then old songs for the Older Adults. If the ladies like the song I can tell you, they are very beat / rhythm dependant, playing it out live to an audience will work
It struck me the first time I worked in Disability care back in the 70’s their love of ABBA, it was amazing for the next time and now this time it is unchanged across the age of 18 – 57. If you can distil what they had sure better time spent than moaning about crap lyrics on the radio.
Well it is now 4.00 am I have spent three hours writing a song, reading of forum pages and writing this novel and I think it may be time for bed.
Would love to learn more about the writers collective but for some other time may be
"get into the beer" and make observations that he might rather keep to himself. That is something we ALL do, and many people never realize that. The entire internet is made up of people that should "think before they press 'SEND.'".
WOW
Arty
Ive been dropping into soundcloud to listen when ever I get a notification
Jw
MAB, thank you for your kind offer expect the first 150 lyrics in an email soon LOL.
As for artists down here in Melbourne there are some interesting developing phenomena, firstly most Open Mics are pre booked (I refuse to partake of this practice) and the performers come in like stars before they are about to play and leave soon after, SAGO’s (Sing And GO’s) so it is not uncommon to have a full list every night and yet only 3 to 4 people watching at any one time. Truly there are performers who I have seen play nearly every week and they are yet to see me play once! I am a believer in start to finish even though I start at 7.00 each morning.
I am still fooled by performers who do not give credit to the songs origins, could almost make a man cynical, if they don’t say they wrote it, they didn’t. This said the debate at such nights to not profess I only play originals could work against the hopeful writer as well.
The other phenomena I have noticed is put on a show and if it is in the least bit interesting all of a sudden the mobile phones come out and they start filming – as I noted although mostly it has been about getting the song right so deliberately playing the song only with no introduction or performance aspect etc. but Wednesday night, two young girls barely 18 came up and asked me what time I was going on and if I would play “Born Again Virgin” – this is a song that worked out of the box so to speak and last played it at this place at least a month ago so had basically put it away, it works – got them up to do the hand actions for the chorus, along with four others in my Brotherly Love Gospel Choir, and voila a wall of mobile phones pointing at the stage.
This is pretty much the same for most performances I have seen, if the performer is doing something different or there is a visual aspect to the performance, out come the phones, make it humorous and bingo, the phone camera wall.
How this translate to the industry is of course the issue, as you noted no one from the industry comes around to these nights hoping to see and find “talent”, they have TV shows for that…
Further the song writing groups I have been to over the last year all revel in the fact they are ALT Country – I loathe this term – basically they are folk singers who take shortcuts in attempting to make rhyme and rely on hopefully the listeners are imbibing of some illegal substance to get worth or understanding from the lyric, but the COUNTRY terminology carries great creditability as to song writing etc. hmmm interesting conundrums.
This may sound as if I am a little jaded or disparaging of the situation down here in Melbourne, but as my son now understands, it could not be further from the truth. I don’t accept the situation as such and constantly talk to punters re songwriting and they GET IT, just not willing to put in any hard yards…. Seems they are believers in the X Factor / xxx Got Talent / The Voice will scoop them up and make stars of them.
So the formation of a writers group charged with helping talent rise with better songs although surely a bit of hard work, is a great idea and one worth the effort. Maybe a Peninsula Group and a City Central group eh JW with get a together for cross pollination?
The other phenomena is music establishments almost demand you have a full card if you want to play, they don’t want to fill spots / gaps, so with enough Talent it would be easy to fill a night which would help promote the group as the night would listed under the groups name…… hmmmm neural activity happening.
As for KISS, it is interesting with 3 chord theory (very funny about the sleepy 12 bars by the way) every second Saturday I go to an Old Timey session, for guitars we are either playing GDC or GAD but two songs with Em LOL But the variety of the tunes and differential is amazing, so for this reason I am not concerned, do use a lot of inversions and in some songs play three variations of the same chord.
There are much better players who will be charged with embellishing my song with their talent and for the Holey Soles I am seeking motown melodic bass, with blues lead and mostly brushes on the drums against the vocals and words with occasional guest star on the Dobro. Waiting confirmation on a texas swing piano player, can only hope!
Arty
I know what you mean but I still hate Mustang Sally it has always been like fingers down a blackboard to me!!




