Kevin Emmrich
Sorry, but Sam Hunt's song sounds like it was written by Max Martin and Kanye.  You can call it country, play it on the pop country stations and have country fans buy it, but it ain't country, it is pure unadulterated manufactured pop (with a twinge of twang -- probably just a computerized effect, though).  You can put a saddle on a pig, but that doesn't make it a horse.  

The second song is closer, but is more along the current singer/songwriter stuff.  

We all know that contemporary country has migrated towards the pop world, because that is where the money seems to be.   The record companies and artists just want to make money.  I have no problem with that and they have to produce stuff that the music buying crowd will actually buy in large quantities.   ... and radio stations get more advertising dollars if they have the most listeners.  

Now there is still plenty of country/americana being produced that is still different enough to be "modern", but still respects the roots of the country music heritage.  It is easily found out there if you want to look for it.

BUT ... In the end, good music is good music.  If you think Sam's tune is good music then that is all that really matters.




Marc-Alan  Barnette
Kevin,

I was quoting Tony Brown, head of MCA records, producer of acts such as Reba McEntire, and many others. "Country's" definition has changed radically over the years (as had every other type of music) and while it might not fit what you or I would identify as country, it IS what the current definition is. And we all have to get used to it. And one of the problems that all the "fans of older country" have is that those people DIE OFF. They stop buying product and going to shows, joining fan clubs, keeping artists going. Yes, Americana and other formats are out there, and most people know that they can find music if they want it. But they have to WANT to find it. And of course, to do that, you get PANDORA and other streaming services and well... there goes your money aspect. Dual edged sword. But even if it is putting a saddle on a pig, unfortunately it is not up to us to make definitions. Music changes and has to to survive. This one has simply changed.

Phil, yes, pretty much anything can be done in the studio. Glad you posted something. Good to hear from you.

I'm still around. When there is something to talk about, I'll pop up.

Take care.
MAB
John Westwood
It seems to me that country  music is what  it always  was  and is still there but the label "country" has been dragged across to what  is now pop and artists and labels  keep the tag   of "country"  as a bit of an each way  bet  and the label  'pop' has  moved across to  encompass  the more urban styles of , dare I call it,   music,


Its the marketing  not so much the music

 1.7C worth at current  exchange rates
Ott Lukk
Marc: You forgot (or included it under marketing), but "Is it being played on country radio?" is pretty important as well. Same applies to pop songs on "contemporary" or "top 40" (see? I'm dating myself) radio. 
Also, Kevin, I was impressed that you know who Max Martin is. I suspect not everyone on these sites does.
Ott
Marc-Alan  Barnette
Ott,

Sorry about that. I thought "being played on country radio" would be implied. Wouldn't be any discussion on this subject if that wasn't happening first.

M
Ott Lukk
I'm plugging an excellent new book I just finished.  "The Song Machine -- Inside the Hit Factory".  Current, just published. If you want to know what's happening and happened in recent history of the industry, get it, read it. Highly entertaining!  Ott
Kevin Emmrich
In my opinion one of the best written songs ever:  Scott Campbell's "Oh Arizona"  
Phillip (phil g.) Grigg

Kevin, I still owe OD a CD from a friend of mine down here. It's some songs he wrote back in the 70's I think. So, I may as well owe you a CD as well. It's a CD by Gary Cavanaugh. Gary has been in Nashville 20ish years now, and still writes the kind of music you have just pointed us to. I don't know if I can "give it to you", but I'll ask Gary if I can let you listen to it. He does sell his CD's, so I don't think I should just send it to you without asking.


Now about the song. It sounds like it's genre' might be folk or Americana. For those genre's I'm sure it's a great song. My problem with this style of music is most of them tend to "Tell" a story instead of "showing" a story. I guess you could argue there really is a lot of imagery in this tune, so it does show the story. The other thing about song I can get into is, I usually  relate in some way to the song. I don't relate to this song. It's more of a picture of history. It isn't until the 3rd verse when he starts talking about tings I can relate to. Pouring your son his first beer, watching your wife grow more beautiful, the smell of cut grass, paying off a loan, etc. But, I've already lost interest before it gets there. For me to listen to a song more than the first few lines, it's got to relate to me right away. I wasn't in the military in 1941, so to me, the song is a history lesson, I've already studied.


phil g.

Kevin Emmrich
...Now about the song. It sounds like it's genre' might be folk or Americana. For those genre's I'm sure it's a great song. My problem with this style of music is most of them tend to "Tell" a story instead of "showing" a story. I guess you could argue there really is a lot of imagery in this tune, so it does show the story. The other thing about song I can get into is, I usually  relate in some way to the song. I don't relate to this song. It's more of a picture of history. It isn't until the 3rd verse when he starts talking about tings I can relate to. Pouring your son his first beer, watching your wife grow more beautiful, the smell of cut grass, paying off a loan, etc. But, I've already lost interest before it gets there. For me to listen to a song more than the first few lines, it's got to relate to me right away. I wasn't in the military in 1941, so to me, the song is a history lesson, I've already studied....
Well I think that's a pretty sad commentary.  I guess that makes you a perfect target audience for today's mindless, riff-driven, a hook every 15 seconds type of music.   It is a bit of a history lesson, but if you already learned it all back in high school, then I guess this song is a waste of time for you.  Sorry I sound ticked off, but I just re-read the paragrpah above and I can't quite believe you wrote all that,
Phillip (phil g.) Grigg

Sorry Kevin. BUT, I did NOT say it was a "terrible" song. In fact, it is a really good song. For that genre'. I just personally don't relate to those songs. It is a lot like the Edmund Fitzgerald. That was a great song too. But, I didn't relate to it.


And no, I don't like the mindless riff driven tunes either. I didn't particularly care for Sam Hunt's, "Break up in a small town". I didn't relate to it's story, and especially NOT to it's groove. MOST of today's country songs I don't particularly care for, but, I posted the link to show "country writers" where that market keeps going towards. If you want to write folk or Americana, then "Arizona" might be a great song to model your efforts after.


phil g.

Mary O'Brien-Sweeney
Hi Kevin,
Interesting reading your comments here, as I do everyone's.You said  
"We all know that contemporary country has migrated towards the pop world".You are probably right, if you are talking about Nashville, but the "world" is a big place and "country" as in the style you are talking about, kind of emigrated: to Europe,Australia, and Ireland. In particular Ireland.If that is the style you write, then maybe you are flogging a dead horse over there, and not looking at the much wider market.

Now that's my rant over, but on another note, I think you are all great writers.You just like different styles,and that's fine! I would today like to thank a writer I would never have known except for Song Ramp.Ott Lukk, gave me a wonderful song to record, which I have and sent it back to him today. Best of luck to you all,no matter what style of music you like!

Mary
John Westwood
I just listened to Arizona. It seems to me to  be more folk  or Americana than country  .

However, as the  term  country has been bastardised to mean  anything with a stetson and a Telecaster it wont be long  before there is country rap genre .

I suppose  ballad of Easy rider  or a Boy  named Sue ,  or  Wild wood  weed  could fall into that genre ... kinda

I cant say  I am a raving  fan of this song  but its OK.. I can  hear the  lyrics, the vox is a little unusual  but not in a bad  way.
I'd listen to it again .

Kevin Emmrich
I believe a lot of songs need to be taken in context.  I've read a lot of books on WW II and maybe this song just hit me at the right time.  Maybe out of context it is just a tired old folk song (ha, ha).  I just think the wonderful language, telling a whole generation's experience through the eyes of one old man, the survivor's remorse and PTSD and then especially what he is going to tell his buddies on the other side, just makes this tune a classic.  But everyone is always entitled to their own opinions. 

Mary:  I listen to lots of "other" type country/amercana (Darrell Scott, Kacey Mulgraves, etc and so on) and I try to mostly model my tunes more in that vein (with varying levels of success).

John:  I don't consider Scott's tune country at all (in any incarnation) -- I don't think I ever implied that.  It is just story telling at its finest.
Mary O'Brien-Sweeney
Thanks Kevin,I'm still trying to get to grips with all these terms everyone is mentioning.I've just about figured out what Americano is listening to some of yours, and I like it.I will have a listen to the singers you mentioned, as i haven't heard them.That is what is great about song ramp, and I love it when people mention singers, or styles that I haven't listened to before.

Slán
Mary
Kevin Emmrich
Here's a few of tunes from Darrell Scott -- I wish I could play, write and perform like that!!


Eddie  Rhoades
Kevin,
   I associate a Telecaster with rock and Gibson or others with country. Let's hear everyone's various opinions on this.
Eddie R
Kevin Emmrich

Kevin,   I associate a Telecaster with rock and Gibson or others with country. Let's hear everyone's various opinions on this. -- Eddie R
I associate Telecasters all the way with country, stratocasters and gibson LP's and SG's with rock and gibson E335's with jazz!.  However, it is not really the guitar, it is the fingers of the players
Phillip (phil g.) Grigg


I associate Telecasters all the way with country, stratocasters and gibson LP's and SG's with rock and gibson E335's with jazz!.  However, it is not really the guitar, it is the fingers of the players


Yep. the fingers do the playin, regardless of the guitar used. I watched those Darrell Scott videos and a couple more. Now I do wish I could play guitar even close to that good.


phil g.

Ott Lukk
First of all, I would like to thank Mary for choosing one of my songs to record. I don't know if all of you realize this, but she lives "across the pond". I first ran across her on Open Mike, loved her artistic style, and took the time to compliment her on her talents. In exchange -- almost always without me even asking, she listened to, and commented on a bunch of my tunes.
Some of you guys should try that more often. I'm getting a cut out of it, and having heard it, I'm really proud of it. We'll have it up on Open Mike, and I'll post here when we do.

I also listened to "Arizona". At the risk of sounding like "faint praise", I thought it was very good "for its genre". Which i'm still trying to figure out. He hits war, wife, present age (I'm about to tell my life story, pay attention), PTSD (as has been mentioned before), watching his son turn into a possible alcoholic (first beer), beautiful wife (failing eyesight or really lucky),cutting grass (ah, nature!), grandson (passes on his genes), Red Sox (show, don't tell), granddaughter (prolific), etc.
He hits all the proper motifs - war, family, love, growing old, being an all around good guy, overcoming adversity (war), and does it very well. I actually liked the tune.
Bur I could never ever write a song like that. Every time I hear something like "Red Sox", my conscious song writing muse says, "oh no, he "showed" instead of "telled". Great.!  But personally, I've gotten to the point where a big "ooggaahh" goes off in my head when I realize a writer is "showing" instead of "telling".  All of a sudden, I'm asking "what's he gonna "show" next ?  not because the song has engaged me, but because i'm wondering how many "shows" I'm going to get!
Curmudgeon that I am, I'm also tired of wholesome family scenes. So sue me.
But, I did enjoy it -- for one listen. It did remind me of "Edmund Fitzgerald" in style.

There's today's rant.  Merry Christmas to all, and stay off my grass!
Ott
Marc-Alan  Barnette
Lot of opinions and that is good. Everyone has their own take based upon their preferences and experiences. That is what music does, pushes us to draw our own conclusion.

I had been told about this song and actually have heard it a couple of times over the past few months or years, I don't know which. But I had the same opinions then that I have now. it is a nice song and puts many things on the page. But I have the same problems with it I have with most songs because they are doing much of the exact same thing. World War II is a pretty popular subject among writers, many who have interests in history and are distposed to write something about an event in history, especially if they have a personal connection to it. Why you get a lot of Vietnam and Gulf war songs. Many people lived through that. With WWII their parents or Grandparents did.

And then there is the fact that there are so many channels with history, movies, televisions, books, newsreels, the Internet, etc. The information is out there a lot. I love em. The problem that creates is the biggest problem we have overall with songwriting, television, movies, etc. in all cases. The public has a very much "BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, GOT THE T-SHIRT" mentality. This song does that. It gives the same scenes. same emotions, same furniture that we have seen in any one of those black and white movies from that day. While it gives a first hand experience, I feel the opposite of Ott, that he is not showing anything I haven't seen so many times before. Just telling me the same thing I already know. 

And by taking the focus on to himself instead of focusing on the things of the ship, he loses the point of title and hook, THE ARIZONA. If he had given all of that information possibly through the EYES of the BATTLESHIP that might have been different. And all the stuff he is going to do on the "other side' has nothing to do with the Arizona. Just drifts around.

The style is most assuredly folk. And the reason Mary recognizes it in a European sense is that they have never veered far from that old style story teller longer songs in those countries, particularly England, Ireland. Scotland. Works very well because that is what they do in those countries. We have a lot of those people come here and the songs are very similar. Much more depressing, but very similar. The problem that has is the SUBJECT MATTER, as Europeans are going to want to hear something about THEIR country as opposed to what happened in our country.American is not most of their favorite subject. But that is a subject for another time.

The bottom line in the point of view of someone like Kevin is that this song hits him and he has great effection for it. That is the target audience. It is a nice folk song that would work well sitting around the room, passing the guitar around and people swapping stories and songs. Would work well on something like the KERREVILLE FOLK FESTIVAL,where they like a lot of these types of songs. Same in places like the West, Texas, where people like Justin, have a predilection to longer,story oriented songs. It would have a market. And of course there is always the place it happened.

When I went to Pearl Harbor a couple years ago, stood there, I was struck by the Veterans walking around. Some were guides, telling their stories, selling their books. Was a very moving experience. Those guys would enjoy a song like this. Most about music is identifying your market and then going where that market is.

On a related note, Big Ed has formed a new project, a band and a web site, dedicated to our song 24 NOTES. It is going to be involved in the BUGLES OVER AMERICA project, trying to get people to perform the song TAPS for Veterans funerals across the Nation. That song has the elements that I talk about in it. You see, I always am very concerned with what I have outlined here. When I approach an idea, I have to find a "twist, or a different perspective than we have all heard a billion times before. There has to be something different, interesting or I simply avoid the idea altogether.

On that song, Ed brought the idea that the song TAPS is only 24 NOTES. That is what took me to a different place. It was something I had never thought about before and had never heard done. So the song was taken to outline that. And because it doesn't really focus on any particular war, can be used as long as people know that song. 

We're all trying to do the same things here. Come up with something that represents us well. We all have favorites. We all have things that hit us. We all have things that we like and everyone else does too, and we all have things that we like and others don't quite get. Nice to have some start a dialogue. Thanks Kevin for bringing it up and thanks to all who commented.

MAB
Phillip (phil g.) Grigg

Kevin, I'm glad you pointed us to the song, "Arizona", and to Darrell Scott's tunes. It is good for all of us to listen to different styles of music from time to time instead of burying ourselves in those mindless, riff driven, hook ever few lines, kind of songs; That country music seems to be migrating towards. The more I listened to Darrell's tunes I started to realize his lyric writing style is a mixture of John Prine and Bob Dylan. I can't quite put a finger on his guitar style, but it has some very good "riffs" added in there that I wish I could learn. Even a little bit.


phil g.

Kevin Emmrich
... I can't quite put a finger on his guitar style, but it has some very good "riffs" added in there that I wish I could learn. Even a little bit. ... 
You can't put a finger on it because I don't know anyone else that plays that hybrid style (pick and fingers) outside of the chicken-picker telecaster country folks.   I know there are probably others (and MAB has most likely seen a few), but I haven't seen anyone else do it.   

Now Darrell is a multi-instrumentalist and was an in-demand session player for awhile so he has probably combined styles from other instruments and other Nashville greats.  In any case, due to his playing style he is pretty dang original to my ears.
Marc-Alan  Barnette
Very nice. As far as the style, it is simple folk/rock finger picking. For another version here is something similar.

Kevin Emmrich
Ha, Darrell Scott mentioned (somewhere) that the intro to Crooked Road is definitely an adaptation (or inspired by) Blackbird.   Good catch.   I've heard an earlier version that didn't have that as much.  I like the latest incarnation of that song (with that blackbird riff) the best.
Phillip (phil g.) Grigg

HA! Figures MAB would point us to a guy who plays his guitar upside down and backwards! LOL Actually, I guess I never noticed Paul was a lefty. Here's one for you MAB; "I may be left handed, but I'm always right!"


Yes Kevin, I did notice Darrell was using the hybrid picking style. My friend and guitar mentor, Mac Walter, has got me to try that style of picking. I can do it. Just no where the same level as Darrell. Actually, it's not the picking style as much as it is the chord fingering, and chord voicing he uses that I haven't learned yet. And those hammer ons and offs I just haven't quite mastered. That is what makes his riffs so interesting. And, I have seen that hybrid picking used by some other artists. That is one of the little things you can pick up on when you, "get out of the living room", LOL! (Sorry. I just had to throw that little jab in for anyone reading along)


phil g.